Accessibility Design for Bathrooms

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so without further Ado please let me introduce Professor Sid Newton from UTS

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to begin the presentation thank you well thank you Serena and good afternoon

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everyone my name is Sydney Newton uh welcome to the participant project update today we'll provide some

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background to the project present some key findings and discuss our plans for

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the future

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to begin with Simon would like to say a few words about John moxon Simon

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thanks very much um Simon to ask I'm part of the research team but I've been a member of both pvcn

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and uh spinal cord injuries Australia previously AQA for many years where I uh

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was fortunate enough to come under the uh spell of John moxon

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John's photographed here by Serena uh entering a bathroom which is uh quite to

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do with what we're talking about today uh you know walking through a Parramatta that became his post-retirement stamping

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ground John acquired his spinal cord injury following a race car racing accident in 1970 which was an attention

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of his engineering career John was an intensely curious person

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a solution seeker and became a colleague friend Confidant and before the term was

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in common use a mentor of the first order evidence-based policy advocacy was his

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Mantra with pdcn but as he told me sometimes you've got to break eggs to make a cake and one of

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my Fondest Memories was being on the streets with John as part of a major Street protest to support Scarlet Finney

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a young girl who just wanted to go to school with her friends on the day of the federal court decision

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of the Scarlet Journey case first book mails grammar and the disability

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movement in New South Wales flooded the streets a fantastic memory

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today is certainly about research and evidence-based policy that John loved so

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much through good scholarship and strategy for social change

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so with those few words just to celebrate John's life uh thank you and

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we now move on to the research seminar

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thank you Simon um along with other academic colleague Philippa we are the research leads from

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UTS uh we did wish to acknowledge the very positive engagement with physical disability Council and New South Wales

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and spinal cord injuries Australia and I'd like to invite first Diana Lucas

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Diane Lucas uh say your obscia and then Serena ovens CEO of pbcn to see a few

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words Diane thank you I just wanted to highlight how

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fantastic it's been to be part of this this research project I think one of the things Susie has who has been leading it

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for us has said that it's she was um it's one of the best practice models of collaboration engagement

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supporting people with disabilities to participate in the scheme in this project so it's been a fantastic project

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to be part of um it's obviously a very very important issue we um and something that is so

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important for obviously everyday living as well as the ability to be out and about and to be able to live your life

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and not have to worry about um something that it should be available wherever you go so I'm really excited to

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be part of it and looking forward to the discussion today and the findings

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thank you Diane uh Serena thanks Sid so again as you know I'm

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Serena I'm the CEO of the physical disability Council for those that may not know us Peterson is the peak body

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for people with physical disability in New South Wales our core work is to achieve equity for people with physical

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disability and ensure their full participation in New South Wales society and we do this mainly through systemic

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advocacy where a member-based organization so if you're not a member please think about joining us and I'll

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get hives to pop the link in the chat for you as well membership is free for people with physical disability and your

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voice experiences and opinions are the base for pdcns prioritizing the work we

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do to achieve inclusive change today I really like to take this opportunity to thank the UTS team for

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the opportunity to partner with them on what is still a major barrier to participation for many access to

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accessible bathrooms it's been a pleasure to work with Sid Simon Philippa Barbara and the team and

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alongside of spinal cord injuries Australia particularly Susie who's done so much of the work there for them and

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I'm eager as you to find out about the research and what it's found and the next steps to using this data to enact

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change lastly can I thank the more than 100 participants from pdcn who spent time

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inputting to the research project providing your valuable personal experiences ensure that rich detailed

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data makes a significant difference in the long run so thank you

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and I thank you both so much for your collaboration in making this pilot project such a success we've also

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benefited greatly from the enthusiastic and expert support provided by pharah Madden and Mark Ralph in particular

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now you'll also note that we've been mostly assisted by our wonderful team of researchers

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uh the necessary funding to undertake this work has been generously provided by UTS

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and of course the work relied heavily on the participation of you the wheelchair user community

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we're especially proud of the number of project participants highlighted here within Asterix who have direct lived

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experience of wheelchair use welcome everyone

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now there should be no need to convince wheelchair users as to the significance of accessible bathrooms

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there is however a real barrier and that is the accessible bathroom use of necessity remains a relatively private

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exercise it is something not often considered by the broader community

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but it is is you have made abundantly clear in this project a very significant issue if you are a wheelchair user

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my colleagues and I were originally approached by Mark Ralph to help him push to improve the current Australian

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design standards for accessible bathrooms those standards generally set minimum

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standards and that minimum standard tends to be what designers then specify

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but minimum specification actively discourages bathroom Innovation and

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tends to produce unsatisfactory outcomes perhaps that for perhaps the majority of wheelchair users

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minimum standards also tend to set the level of funding allocated to accessible bathrooms

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meaning again in other inadequate Provisions for some unsuitable or indeed

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unnecessary Provisions for others at that stage of course we get into

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having to retrofit bathrooms which everyone accepts is a very expensive option

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so best to try and get it right in the first place finally when you look at the evidence

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base for the current standards they are based largely on Research from the 1970s

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and 1980s those studies were narrowly focused on the scientific measurement of body sizes

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and physical abilities with groups of just a few dozen participants

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in the decades since which has changed about the people who use Mobility devices how they use bathrooms the

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mobility devices themselves and the bathroom products available yet the evidence base for the standards

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has not changed the evidence base has not changed in Australia in fact it has not changed

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globally our motivation here is that robust empirical and lived experience data of

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contemporary bathroom use will greatly strengthen the case for changes to the Australian standards

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first and foremost this was a pilot project aimed at demonstrating the feasibility and benefits of working in

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close collaboration with the community of wheelchair users it aimed to be inclusive because lived

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experience is so vital to understanding how people actually experience accessible bathrooms

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it aimed to be embodied because experience is a complex phenomenon

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experience is directly impacted by our perceptions our emotions our physiology

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and our agency in other words to understand experience

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we need to combine multiple lenses how are users predisposed to bathrooms

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how do they react to particular bathroom settings what are their motivations

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for those complementary lenses we require multiple and complementary research methods

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so we have combined a questionnaire survey that asks quite specific things

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of many people along with field studies that reveal new aspects of actual use

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along with interviews that probe in more depth and explore some of the important

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nuances to accessible bathroom use we would like to briefly review each of

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those quite separate but intentionally complementary studies

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so firstly with the online survey and starting with Simon over to you

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thank you very much uh remembering to press the view button again

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um so uh we carried out an online survey

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um but most importantly and I I am a person whose power wheelchair used to

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have been for uh almost 40 years now um we got together a team that included

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academics and Industry experts as we've said Mark Ralph and Farah Madden both

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the experienced people on the Australian standards committee and uh we then also

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engaged uh others from uh those that we we know from the community and we had 20

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people test that co-designed uh questionnaire we were able to build in

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the comments from power wheelchair users manual wheelchair users others who used

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other forms of Mobility AIDS before we learned launched the final survey that

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survey uh produce 209 completed responses

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and without going into a stat session uh

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we collected a series of descriptive statistics as well as uh inferential that look at between group differences

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so if I could come over to the next slide please so just some uh 94 were completed by

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people with disability the other six percent completed by significant others

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for example um parents or uh attendants that we're assisting it was across support needs

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from independent users through to those with very high support needs uh the

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daily Mobility AIDS and this was a multi-response question so it totals

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over a hundred sixty percent power wheelchair uses 55 manual wheelchair

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users scooters walking frames and lower limb Prosthetics the age range spans 60

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years from uh 28 to 80 and 55 were male

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and 44 female one percent identifying as non-binary

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so the stats results really showed that there was a um older respond respondent

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preference for grab rails given that their disability significantly increases

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with age uh and uh they um the higher the support

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needs the more space that was required and so this idea of a the footprint

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wheelchair footprint coming from the 1970s and 80s where all chairs including power chairs

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were much smaller and uh there was also a preference for

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those that transferred so if we go to the next slide Sid

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so the first stat uh press the button again is eight percent had a left-hand

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preference uh next 16 for right hand next 33 with no preference and could use

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both but 43 did not transfer while using the

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uh public bathrooms coming over said to the next slide

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so what did the survey results reveal well uh one public accessible bathrooms

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are upper avoided due to issues of access uh there's a major issue to do with

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manual door opening uh due to the strength required to open and many

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weren't compliant with that strength automatic doors were not available at

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most places there's a whole series of issues to do with privacy locks and

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security of bathroom doors a lack of space to move around within uh

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particularly where you've got a particular side preference to be able to use the various facilities and backrests

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and grab rails are contentious uh Philippa will talk more about the qualitative findings but just to tell

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you on the survey the open-ended responses uh generated 27 000 words of

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qualitative comments from the uh just over 200 users I'm going to hand back to Sid that's

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going to put the T technology into this University of Technology study

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oh thanks Simon I saw where the online survey successfully produced statistically

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significant empirical evidence the field study is more about experimental

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experimental in the sense that we're looking to develop and test a range of exciting and often entirely novel

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digital Technologies we aim to apply these emerging Technologies collectively to better

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understand how people experience the built environment and this is our entire laboratory that

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fits with ease into a regular backpack it comprises a discrete 360 video camera

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a an iPad Pro with onboard laser scanner

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at the an audio recorder with remote lapel mic capability at C

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a wristband device that measures various biometric markers d

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and the latest in eye tracking glasses that video record whatever the wearer is looking at at e

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we then have a suite of sophisticated software that enables us to synchronize

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and analyze all of the data from each of the devices recorded over time

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the 360 camera records images in every direction at the same time

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you can see what a 360 image looks like when projected onto a two-dimensional plane in the bottom left corner

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however using specialized apps we can then clear that image or video back and

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view it as a single view of field of view drag the cursor to move our field of

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view around the space even zoom in and out all in high resolution

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the laser scanner in the iPad creates what is called a point cloud of Any Given room

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the point Cloud measures the dimensions of every surface in the space with millimeter accuracy

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from the correct from the correctly dimensioned representation we can directly create an accurate 3D CAD model

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from the cad model we can produce scale drawings of plans elevations sections

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that capture the actual layout of the room with all fittings correctly located and

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scaled we can then overlay on each individual bathroom some of the critical

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requirements of the current standards in purple clear space around the toilet

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pan the required location of toilet flushing mechanisms the required location of toilet roll

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dispenser points Etc the drawings then highlight where the

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actual bathroom layout may not be satisfying the current standards in this case the toilet paper is

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presented from the base of the toilet roll mechanism and therefore outside the purple Zone it defines what is required

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by the standards

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the same iPad laser scanner can also be used to track its own movements through space

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so here the red line represents the iPad which we attach to the rear of each

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wheelchair for the duration of the simulated bathroom use

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each participant then simulates how they would use that particular bathroom including any maneuvering transfer

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procedures hygiene Etc the iPad remains attached to the

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wheelchair for the duration this simulation then shows how the

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movement of the iPad represented by the red line is tracked through the space and recorded

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using specialist software we can attach a scaled representation of the particular wheelchair model to the iPad

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as it moves through the space taking the wheelchair with it in this way we're able to replay the

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actual movement of the wheelchair for each participant as well

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the lapel mic records the comments of each participant in real time the audio can then be transcribed and

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time stamped for analysis

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the biometric wristband records medical grade high resolution and not 60 data

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points per second readings of loopholes volume body temperature hand movement

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and electrodermal activity all of which offer a unique window into

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the emotional and physical state of an individual as they experience the bathroom setting

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at the same time the eye tracking glasses or video recording what the user is observing and Tiny sensors in the

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glasses tracked the people movement to determine the precise point of focus within the

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view

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finally we have a suite of incredible software that provides a wealth of visualization and data analysis options

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this is where the rubber hits the road never before has such a rich combination

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of synchronized data being applied in this way the 360 images can be played in virtual

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reality headsets so we can place users designers or researchers right there in

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the room for auditing and training the card models can be interrogated to

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extract actual dimensions and to check compliance with key parts of the standards

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the wheelchair tracking is perhaps the most novel of our Technologies and we're still exploring the potential it offers

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to analyze wheelchair and wheelchair user movements to study clearances positions

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maneuverability alternative wheelchair designs Etc

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all of this information is accurately synchronized and time stamped

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software will automatically generate Peak maps of what each participant has

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focused their attention on or average multiple heat maps for multiple users

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the analysis software can also sequence the areas of attention to determine the order in which

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participants visually interrogate the space combined we get objective data on

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compliance movement attention and reactions this is truly game changing capability

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and all of the technology fits into a small backpack meaning it is highly

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portable quick to set up an easy chant to transport into bathrooms across the

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country so what have we learned from the field

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studies this far some key points first up nobody in our studies touched

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the grab rails when required it is the toilet seat that provides the critical Anchor Point

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of course when you audit 2021 accessible bathrooms as we now have you very

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quickly note that many toilet seats are unstable poorly maintained and loose fitting

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with the 360 degree images you can observe the lack of storage space for medical and other required procedures

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the lack of General wear spins and no specialist bins for medical waste

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our CAD models reveal the impact of adopting the same extra-large toilet roll dispensers in accessible toilets as

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in bathrooms more generally in accessible bathrooms the grab rails

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compete for the same wall space as the toilet roll dispenser mechanism

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the participant commentary recordings voice Commons concerns with the provision of backrests

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Biometrics highlight highlight which design features caused the most concern for users

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for example in our study it is the Dyson style above access hand dryers as a

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particular case in points eye tracking shows an almost Universal

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and habitual concern with the locking mechanism of the entrance Door

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we do have many other insights from our field studies but at this stage with only 10 up participants involved the

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results are more about the proof of concept and potential than they are about drawing strong conclusions

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with that I'll now pass over to Philippe to present our interview process phillipa thank you Sid

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um and thanks everyone for attending today I um as you can see the survey and

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the field studies are so exciting for their scalability um as much as the technology that's being used lots of this part of the

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project this next part that I'll be talking about today is the is the quality of a more um in-depth part of the project I had

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the privilege of speaking with everyone who completed their field study with Sid

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and got to have this really rich discussions that explored how people

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interact with accessible bathrooms how they experience all of the different

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elements within the bathroom um what what they liked and what they didn't like and

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um we uh but we were able to recruit six participants from pdcn and six from scia

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we conducted one-on-one interviews I'd like to thank all the participants who spent time with me um up to an hour each

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and we recorded and transcribed those um and they're being automatically

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analyzed as we speak so what I'm going to be talking today is some of the preliminary findings from that we were lucky to have a

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diversity of EX lived experience a range of different types of wheelchairs that

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people use are using um as well as catheterization and non-catheterization within our

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interviews I'm Sid if you'd like to go to the next slide some of the emerging themes that we

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found I mean there's the sheer diversity of use the different ways that people interact with all the different elements

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that we find within accessible bathrooms and people's preferences and the role that or how people's unique lived

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experiences will inform directly how they interact with all of the items within an accessible bathroom

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and some of the features that we would talk about were of course the toilet is front and center but also toilet paper

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use preferences um how hand washing and hand drying preferences the types of

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grab rails that people use and also entrance security door locks

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and layout what was particularly interested is the way that um well people talked about

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avoiding public bathrooms altogether and if uh if they're aware of a particularly

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poor poorly maintained public bathroom the role that hygiene plays in whether

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or not um people will interact with public bathrooms of course

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um and but also if they're not avoiding the amount of preparation the need for

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preparedness and planning and perhaps to know where the bathrooms are but also when you're using you know the different

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designs of bathrooms um the order of accessing paper where to

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put catheterization equipment Etc is something that we talked about a

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lot and I think it really interesting is look at the variety of risks and safety issues that came out the risks that

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people take by simply using a an accessible bathroom um and the role that design plays there

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in mitigating those risks or accentuating those risks um hygiene who can talk about public

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bathrooms without talking about hygiene everyone's been in one of those absolutely

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revolting disastrous bathrooms that we don't have to interact with and we had so many stories of people who

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um you know are forced to get quite close and to the bowl of the toilet that you know we really don't don't want to

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be in you know our faces don't want to be close to our bodies being close to so we highlighted just how critical

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maintenance of bathroom is and how often it's not um it's not done well

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um the other um theme that came up is the role of privacy and dignity and the role

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that design plays you know automatic locks that were particularly sensitive and would open uh when people were in

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the middle of using them um and I think what was uh great to talk

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about too are people's pet peeves what are people really not like in accessible bathrooms

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um as well as all of the design features that are working really well for people can you go to the next side thanks slid

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so um I've chosen just a couple of themes that have been have come out of

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the interviews that we conducted um and giving you a few examples of some

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of the quotes that have come out um I think something that's not talked about a lot is uh Catholic use and and

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the how the range of catheter use will Define how people interact with a toilet

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um whether people transfer um in order to use a catheter whether they don't need to transfer

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and the importance of storage you know sterile storage areas and Disposal areas

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in the bathroom and you can see that of course you know the risks that people

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take when a toilet is not clean um a person on the screen one person's

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quote use my pet peeves when toilets are not clean our faces and bodies have to get really close to the toilet bowl with

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the catheter um and uh one of the other quotes here

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is is people assume because I catheterized that I don't actually get on the toilet well I've gotten on the

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toilet every single time for over 25 years so the sheer diversity of use

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um is something that um I think is you know it does present a design challenge but it's so important to have an

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understanding of how people actually use these spaces and the equipment that they're using in these spaces

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in order to design better Sid could you go to the next slide thank you of course another really important

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part of our conversations was toilet transferring for people who did transfer and again as Sid mentioned the

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fact that that toilet seat really effectively becomes another grab rail within the space

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um and how um some of the um those are often not secured properly

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um and some of you may not be surprised if that backrest comes up as a point of conversation

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um for for many many of the participants um particularly for people who transfer

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onto the toilet and use a catheter because it seems to push people far forward which can increase the risk of

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over balancing and needing that space to actually access um you know in front of themselves in

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the while they're on the toilet uh and the height of toilet bowls you know and what works for some people

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doesn't work for other people and that there's a real variety of hot toilet Heights that people find within accessible bathrooms that presented a

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challenge thanks Sid could you go to the next slide um I'd like to talk a little bit about

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the risks that people take when they are um in their day-to-day use of accessible

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toilets some people may not have a break on their uh on their wheelchair and of

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course the gradient in a bathroom floor can mean that you have to be very they have to be very very careful and have

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their hands on the chair at all times

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um the mounting of that toilet paper holder that Sid also mentioned are quite a few people mentioned that that by the

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time you when you reach down to actually access the toilet paper people are risking um falling onto the floor

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because it's so low um and because the center of gravity is is placed you know away from the from the toilet itself

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and also when using those toilet seats and grabbing onto them they can be sharp on the edges preventing people from

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getting a really good grip and that can risk people's stability

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um and and that's falling off that toilet or ending up on the floor is a really significant risk

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um can you go to the next slide said I think that might be up to you nanya so I'll go back to you now said thank you

32:08

yes thanks uh Philippa but we began our presentation today by

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noting how bathroom use is something that typically gets hidden behind closed doors and it's a private experience for

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most of us but that also means it is really discussed and the majority of the

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population will have never even ventured inside an accessible bathroom

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the significance of that is it's difficult to empathize with the problem when you have no personal experience of

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that problem so what we want to do is to Leverage The findings of this pilot project to both

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educate and provoke in addition to the empirical data from

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the survey the variety of visualizations from our field studies and the telling voices of lived

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experience we are producing a series of graphic illustrations to help communicate the

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messages overall we will write for the conversation for

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Professional Publications and Advocate with government agencies and the various standards committees

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it's about shining a timely and focused light on this much neglected but

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significant aspect of accessing the building the built environment

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so where to next where do we take the project the collaborations the industry support and

33:33

your participation from here absolutely in the coming months we aim

33:39

to translate our findings from your participation into articles and visual

33:44

resources particular to wheelchair use of public accessible bathrooms full stop

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that said however all along we have been advised that the most pressing need is for empirical data

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articulate to domestic and residential settings the current design standards for

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accessible bathrooms are especially poorly served with data from domestic settings

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the multi-method approach we've developed including the portable Technologies now makes empirical study a

34:15

domestic settings entirely feasible

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along with accessible bathrooms of course there are many other elements of the built environment that warrant the

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form of inclusive and embodied research approach we have demonstrated in this pilot project

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kitchens entrances showers indeed every room in every type of building homes

34:40

hotels schools hospitals aged care all would benefit from a mixed method an

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inclusive approach similar to what has been developed and employed in this pilot project

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similarly as well as wheelchair access other access issues could and should be

34:59

investigated but the mobility issues visual impairment aging

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we all experience the built environment in different ways however as this pilot study demonstrates

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we can now begin to reveal more and more about how different those experiences

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can be we can use emerging Technologies to complement traditional modes of

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Investigation take our research instruments out into the community and into authentic user

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settings involve the community not just to study subjects but as meaningful members of

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the research team we do hope you consider this pilot

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project has taken an important step in the right direction and we very much thank you all once

35:49

again for your willing participation in encouraging support thank you

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we did think that we would uh like to have a small pool of the audience and so there's a little provocative

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quote there I no longer use public toilets so sometimes I just go out to think I just don't go out to things

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and so there's a pool now available to you to ask if you've ever avoided a social situation because you could not

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find a suitable accessible bathroom so if you'd like to just respond to that

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as we go through we can now open the law to any questions or comments please

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so I can see Cara's got her handle Kara do you want to go hi

36:56

um thanks for inviting me here today it was um it was great to participate in

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this project I just have a question um obviously we have heard and

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um that there are a lot of different preferences would there ever be um like I guess

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a push for multiple options so for example not just to have the flush button behind you but also have a like

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the flash button behind you but also have like a lever on the side or different

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um positions or for uh the toilet paper say one beside you a bit higher one this

37:33

side you know on a general level I mean would that ever be an option

37:42

but um I think um the the question of whether what options

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there may be will come down to um funding and standards determination so we don't determine the standards but

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we can help influence and advise and promote changes to those standards and

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um what we're trying to do is to develop a an empirical data set that we can use to convince the standards committees and

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others that those sorts of changes are appropriate and so there's a a raft of different

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possibilities that we can we can go back to the standards committees with

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um the those the strongest ones will be whatever the current empirical evidence we have supports and if in future we

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have further evidence that supports uh multiple options as you as you indicate

38:33

then obviously that's something that we also uh seek to promote

38:38

foreign there's a couple of comments in the chat said Ali Robertson's um suggested that

38:46

we need more changing Place toilets

38:53

uh well again you know the um there's a range of different

38:59

requirements that that we can look for and certainly in the audit that we've

39:04

done um of 21 different bathroom settings uh there were very minimal changing places

39:10

available within those uh within those set um but until or unless we can do a more

39:16

comprehensive uh study of the of what kind of level of availability there is

39:22

or lack of the availability which I'm sure it will be the case um the changing places are an additional

39:28

option so again you know I don't want to set the expectations too high for this

39:34

project um that that there's been so little research done on accessible bathrooms

39:41

that um the moment we look at it a whole range of different issues begin to reveal

39:47

um but we will be able to take some very constructive empirical evidence from the research and use that to promote for

39:54

genuine change in the building standards within Australia we've also got I think it's John Nugent

40:01

who's commented that some of the least accessible public locations are doctors offices x-ray dentists Hospital

40:07

administrative areas um and if anything people would have thought that they would have been the

40:13

most Cutting Edge for having accessible facilities um Diane agreed with that yeah I agree

40:19

with that too that's so interesting isn't it you we would think that they would have the most accessible settings and often they don't

40:25

um I also just like to respond to Kara's initial comment just about design because having a background as a

40:32

designer the so interesting that you mentioned how do you how do you accommodate for such diversity of use

40:38

with one design of a bathroom and I think that's one of the the big challenges that will eventually kind of

40:44

have to face I think this Pro what this project does is the very important first step is to say all right how are people

40:50

using it what is important what are the different aspects though that are important and what we might find is for

40:56

example you gave the example of toilet paper we we might find that there is a way of Designing you know a dispenser

41:03

that has multiple access points I mean that's where you know good design and more really targeted good design kind of

41:09

comes into play it's a little bit kind of further down the track from this particular

41:14

um particular kind of piece of research but something that I'm really interested in too Cara like how do we you know

41:21

accommodate everyone's individual needs in one design that I can also see that Liz has her

41:27

hands up

41:34

every um it is about Victoria I was involved I

41:41

had the fortune that I've been able to do what we call the toilet so

41:47

um in reviewing uh a bathroom that had just been designed on the river

41:57

um now what we found was with the boxes of the you know how the

42:03

with that design that you've just done uh looked at with the systems in the

42:09

back of the wall it is impossible for a lot of people to be able to have the

42:14

strength to push those buttons in what um we had the

42:21

there was a too hard I've never had this ability and

42:27

another lady that also had I had disability as well and

42:34

I were talking to the Architects about this design and what they have come up

42:39

with is they were going to put systems in that of um a stainless steel and there's

42:46

the new um it's time to stove I have found that very strong and

42:53

will withstand um you know been erect

43:00

um they were also going to put in what they found was there is a high need for people

43:06

that needed showers um and they were going to put a hot and

43:12

cold showers and and what they were going to do was put all this design through the whole

43:17

Council but every new um bathroom that they had built

43:24

thanks for the manic Dawn which was the Great great was really

43:31

you know a great um asset for the whole community

43:37

um thank you um you mentioned the automatic doors and Chris and Rochelle have also put some

43:43

comments in um Chris Sparks says the accessible toilet doors on the brand new hospital at bega weigh a ton and have no

43:50

automatic functionality um and he's quite astounded that that is in a new situation something that's

43:56

occurred and Rochelle asked said whether you looked at the width of doors

44:02

um there seems to be a range of widths weights of doors and opening sweep of doors

44:08

in the reporting 28 standards yeah that also depends on the space of where the

44:14

bathroom is important because you need a certain width for the doors to be able to slide open

44:20

yeah they'll pass back to Simon I think he wants to comment on that one sorry yeah I know there's a number of comments

44:28

first off uh there's some really cool Innovations going on around uh you know

44:34

the uh the the pressing of buttons and uh you know the combination of proximity

44:42

sensors to buttons is already out there and available

44:47

um sometimes it becomes a cost issue and that's also

44:52

um you know when they're looking in the short term it comes back to inverted

44:58

commas compliance what is the minimum rather than what is the maximum use of

45:04

facility you'll get if it incorporates Innovative design that gives you the

45:10

independence and dignity of being able to get in and out of a toilet by yourself I mean I've recently been stuck

45:18

uh you know in a facility that was a brand new design only a few years ago

45:24

and they they made a conscious decision not to put in the auto opener doors now

45:30

that's terrible for a major public facility so there's a politics around it and it

45:37

certainly lives fantastic that uh you know the the Albury council is going to have a

45:43

um a whole of area approach to putting in best practice rather than minimum

45:48

standards thank you for those examples there obviously is the issue too of of

45:56

where the toilets are placed and the fact that when you're traveling being able to access a toilet particularly if

46:03

you need a changing place and the details that you might have to do or the limited amount of time you can spend out

46:09

in order to feel comfortable and find what you need

46:14

yes and in our audit we also found that a number of the accessible bathrooms were behind security doors where you

46:21

couldn't actually get to them on particular floors um but I think just in response to the measuring door access widths um the

46:30

benefit of the scanner is that it will capture those sorts of Dimensions uh from the room once we've gone in and

46:36

scanned the space and we can then use the cad system to interrogate individually those those Dimensions but

46:44

also all of the other dimensions within each individual bathroom setting I suppose the one thing we can't

46:50

estimate within all of this is the weight of the door and the ability to open or close it physically

46:57

you can certainly test what those forces are and I think it's 19 Newtons it's

47:02

supposed to be uh but there's no doubt that um the location uh does affect the

47:09

ability to get the chair close enough and somebody with my dexterity

47:14

um it's almost impossible you can either get it opened and then it closes on you then you can't get back out or not the

47:21

other way so there's a whole series of those issues about in uh you know getting in and getting out safely that

47:29

become uh you know quite uh quite serious for for those that are involved

47:35

in it one other question about the um uh particular no no Chris Sparks has just

47:41

done a tour from Vega up to cans and back uh being able to plan your trips

47:48

and find accessible lose uh or stations that'll give you a hand if you needed

47:55

filling petrol is one of those other ones that becomes critical to being able to travel in Regional New South Wales uh

48:03

or Regional Victoria or anywhere else in the country as well so that that idea of

48:09

having that an updated version of the gis for accessible news in the country

48:14

is also something that is of tremendous benefit not only to us socially but also

48:22

to those areas uh economically if they want to get people to travel to them

48:28

fix also mentioned in the chat said that Architects have to attain CPD points so

48:33

professional develop points to stay registered every year and this sort of research would be great for them to be

48:39

able to do on um that and get those that experience and knowledge that they may not get

48:45

normally he's also said can anyone help him if he um if as he's doing a

48:51

presentation to a group next week and um wants to know about what the VCA doesn't

48:57

tell you about being a wheelchair user he's popped his email in the chat if

49:03

anyone wants to to reach out to him to assist so my question if and I can't see any

49:09

other hands and I do apologize if you do have a hand up or I'm missing you please let me know just call out at this point

49:15

in time um what's the next step Sid are you going to take this and broaden your

49:20

study get more people more areas will you take it to

49:25

um the as as Simon mentioned obviously minimum standards in terms of the

49:32

building standards are just that minimum we're seeing that there's so much more needed I was really interested to hear

49:39

Philippa um and hadn't really thought about the fact that many people want some sterile place that they can put

49:46

their um pieces of equipment Etc that they need rather than in their chair

49:51

um how do we design something that fits and will make that accessible and feasible for everybody in the different

49:57

users what's what's next on the agenda

50:03

well I think um the the next thing on the agenda is to try and raise more public awareness and more

50:10

um professional awareness as to the issues that have been revealed from the study and so it really is about uh

50:17

provoking and um and educating the uh the decision

50:22

makers and the the um the community in general to raise awareness of these

50:28

kinds of issues that we very much like to expand and extend the the research

50:34

that we've done and so we'll also of course be looking for some funding to support that process as well

50:42

a couple more comments in the chat um one is are hoists going to become a minimum standard will we see them in

50:48

bathrooms again I'm not a um I don't sit on the

50:55

standards committee so I'm not an expert in in the um in the specifications side I know that there's a a current review

51:03

and a new standards will be announced soon um but that's for the uh standards

51:10

committee to determine will this information go to them though so they can see all the bits and pieces

51:18

that have come out of this and sorry Simon I didn't mean to talk over you no no one uh certainly that's uh that's

51:24

what we're doing and of course with uh industry Partners like um Mark and Farah

51:30

who are deeply ingrained on those various committees that will be a you

51:36

know one of the things that we're doing uh but also uh Diane's put up uh you

51:42

know a very interesting comment around how do we go about uh prioritizing critical services for our advocacy

51:48

campaigns uh using the evidence that comes out of this project so both uh you

51:54

know all organizations that have got an advocacy role in this space we're very

52:00

happy to talk to and also uh formulize uh strategies moving forward

52:06

um people know me I've been around a while uh I don't do research to get Journal articles I get do research to

52:14

get involved in getting social change and uh that's yeah you know that's the

52:20

next complete uh you know complex part of the puzzle uh and with your assistance Diane Serena all the great uh

52:27

you know policy officers that are there uh we're happy to um you know get together and brainstorm where we should

52:34

be going and uh more importantly too how we do that and how we uh use the

52:40

Fantastic Tech that Sid's brought into that as that you know a little bit of a

52:45

gee whiz to get those social media campaigns up and running a couple more notes in the chat for you

52:52

and Robin thank you um she said she sits on the standards and she's here so great

52:57

to have someone listening in that can feed back directly as well um John Nugent also said it should be also

53:04

good to recognize some of the good work and obviously some of the major shopping centers are starting to provide

53:10

reasonable toilet accessibility um Macquarie in um Sydney and New South Wales for one in his opinion again I

53:18

guess that depends John on what you need and what's what's in place but then absolutely

53:26

more questions I was just going to jump in and ask one

53:32

quickly if that's all right you made sure so what's the full name of the standards committee that we're referring

53:38

to so it's the it's the Australian building

53:44

standards that we're talking about and this standards and Robin you might want to

53:51

clarify specifically if you like save me the whole group of Standards is called

53:57

as1428 and there are currently yeah not they're not all called up into

54:04

the building code so that's one issue in itself um uh and it is it's the access and

54:12

Mobility for new building work and so the thing that I'm sitting here worrying about as well is that those

54:20

um toilets that are new and that for example don't have compliant door clear

54:25

door openings should have been signed off by a building certifier or an access consultant and that obviously isn't

54:32

happening as well so we've got a whole follow one of issues that are happening

54:38

here and the other problem you know that which we started at the beginning is that that standard which was based on

54:45

very old research didn't actually even include people who use um electric wheelchairs it's only from

54:51

manual Wheelchairs and so you know it excluded a huge number of people and and

54:57

the reason why we haven't been able to change that is because we haven't had

55:03

the research so I think this is really key because we are doing

55:09

um it's a challenge to convince the building industry that they need to

55:15

pay for and include for example um automated doors that's that's

55:21

anything that's involves cost is always a battle but if we've got the research to actually say

55:29

that's what that's what you need um then we've got a much stronger voice because we

55:36

it is a challenge thank you Robin um I do understand that I just wanted to

55:42

say one make one point obviously building um accessible toilets or anything

55:48

accessible does involve a cost but as we've seen if the cost is being spent

55:54

even if it's not meeting the needs so I think the money would be more well spent

56:00

um and get more quality out of the the money long term if it actually met the needs of the consumer oh I don't

56:07

disagree in any way shape or form I mean the huge issue at the moment for example is that trying to get just minimum

56:14

access into residential buildings here in New South Wales has been rejected on

56:21

the grounds of cost which we have actual research that proves that that's not not correct but that's what's happened so

56:29

you know unfortunately we all you do everybody needs to speak up it's really

56:35

important that you know and it's not just seen as a minority issue and but

56:41

you know we have to comply with the disability Discrimination Act as well you know that those things are just being pushed to

56:47

one side so you know the idea of promoting the issue is I think is great

56:52

I think it's really important we need to be more I mean I think it's hard when you know

56:59

you can't easily just use a basic toilet um and [Music]

57:05

and then we're asking you to stand up and and promote that issue but I think that's that seems to me there's little

57:11

option really absolutely thanks Robin and thanks for

57:17

clarifying um and you're absolutely right the fact that we can't get New South Wales the largest state in the country to accept

57:24

minimum um sort of a livable design standards is absolutely frightening

57:30

um and something that a number of our organizations are working on every single day at the moment not having much

57:36

luck but we're working hard and there'll be a parliamentary Forum next week to actually talk to the broader issues as

57:43

well as the NCC guidelines but um many of the housing issues for people who

57:49

live in New South Wales all over so everyone I'm aware that we're just

57:54

over time I don't think there's any other hands up and um if I've missed you I do apologize there's a few more things

58:01

in the chat um that I'll make sure are captured and given to the research team so it can be put with all the other researchers well

58:08

um and at this time I will take the time to say thank you everyone for attending and for your time

58:15

um once we finish we will as we said have a recording that we can send out to you and you can pass that on to others

58:21

if they're interested and I'm pretty sure the UTS team will be Keen to link with people moving forwards um to tell

58:28

you about next steps if they are looking to engage with people further so by all

58:33

means we have most of your email addresses and we'll reach out and let you know if there's more to come and if

58:39

you'd like to be a part we'd greatly welcome your involvement so thank you to

58:44

the UTS team to the seaa team and to everyone online I appreciate your time

58:50

and efforts