This project takes an inclusive and embodied approach to ensuring public and private bathrooms are well-designed, more accessible, less hazardous, and healthier for people with disability.
Lead: Prof Sidney Newton, Faculty of Design, Architecture & Building
Year: 2021
For older people and those living with disability, within the built environment the design of bathrooms is especially significant. Correctly designed private and public bathrooms enable those with restricted capabilities to live more independently at home, and to participate with greater mobility and confidence in the community. A well-designed bathroom is more accessible, less hazardous, and healthier for everyone. Above all, the provision of well-designed, accessible bathrooms helps ensure that everyone enjoys more equitable access to places of work, education, welfare, entertainment, wellbeing, and in short, to life.
This project undertakes inclusive empirical research with/by the aged and disability community, in living laboratory (mobile/field) settings. The research will document (accurately 3D scan) in-place accessible bathroom designs; analyse individual use experiences (using sophisticated motion-capture and user biometrics); and listen to (discuss, survey and observe) lived experiences. The necessary technologies to scan spaces, capture and analyse movements, interpret behaviour, monitor physiology, and record subconscious emotional responses are only now sufficiently accurate, portable, available, affordable and non-intrusive, to enable such a study. The capabilities of these emerging technologies are currently being demonstrated by the study team in the related contexts of urban stress in busy city streets, health and safety on construction sites, and resident experiences of parks and public art. Outcomes from these projects are identifying the specific design features that most determine pedestrian stress; redefining on-site safety training; and strengthening the value proposition for public art. Never before have they been applied collectively to community-based research of accessible bathrooms. A proof of concept demonstration study for accessible bathrooms is proposed initially, to collect and analyse representative data and establish a basis for the more ambitious funding applications required if fundamental change in accessible bathroom design standards is to be achieved.
What impact will we create?
In order to best meet the needs of individuals with disabilities or older people, we must first understand individual experiences. Understanding needs will drive improvements in the building standards, increase value for money, and help avoid expensive demolition or potential relocation during retrofits. Improved bathroom standards will increase independence and mobility as well as making accessible bathrooms safer. Effective accident prevention and supporting people in their homes, can avoid the cost and need for institutional care.
Who will we work with?
- Prof Sidney Newton, UTS Faculty of Design, Architecture & Building (built environment and digital technology)
- Prof Simon Darcy, UTS Business (disability and design standards)
- Dr Phillippa Carnemolla, UTS Faculty of Design, Architecture & Building (disability and aged care space design and inclusive research)
- Mark Relf – Accessibility Solutions Ltd
- Farah Madon – Vista Access Architects
- Physical Disability of Council NSW
- Spinal Cord Injuries Australia
…and hopefully YOU!
Research Design
The project will include an online questionnaire survey of people who use mobility aids or manual or power wheelchairs, as well as piloting of 3D scanning technology capturing how people use AS1428 standard bathrooms. The 3D technologies are able to scan spaces, capture and analyse movements, interpret behaviour, monitor physiology, and record subconscious emotional responses.
Funding Support
- UTS DVC Research - University Industry Collaboration Funding
Network Research Themes
- Inclusion and Social Participation
- Social Justice, Diversity and Equity
Preliminary Update
This research is a pilot project to address the actual 'useability' of accessible public bathrooms. This video is of the feedback webinar held on Tues 8 November 2022, and describes the research undertaken and findings from the project, along with next steps for improving these spaces for those that use them.
0:00
so without further Ado please let me introduce Professor Sid Newton from UTS
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to begin the presentation thank you well thank you Serena and good afternoon
0:12
everyone my name is Sydney Newton uh welcome to the participant project update today we'll provide some
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background to the project present some key findings and discuss our plans for
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the future
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to begin with Simon would like to say a few words about John moxon Simon
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thanks very much um Simon to ask I'm part of the research team but I've been a member of both pvcn
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and uh spinal cord injuries Australia previously AQA for many years where I uh
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was fortunate enough to come under the uh spell of John moxon
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John's photographed here by Serena uh entering a bathroom which is uh quite to
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do with what we're talking about today uh you know walking through a Parramatta that became his post-retirement stamping
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ground John acquired his spinal cord injury following a race car racing accident in 1970 which was an attention
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of his engineering career John was an intensely curious person
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a solution seeker and became a colleague friend Confidant and before the term was
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in common use a mentor of the first order evidence-based policy advocacy was his
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Mantra with pdcn but as he told me sometimes you've got to break eggs to make a cake and one of
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my Fondest Memories was being on the streets with John as part of a major Street protest to support Scarlet Finney
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a young girl who just wanted to go to school with her friends on the day of the federal court decision
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of the Scarlet Journey case first book mails grammar and the disability
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movement in New South Wales flooded the streets a fantastic memory
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today is certainly about research and evidence-based policy that John loved so
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much through good scholarship and strategy for social change
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so with those few words just to celebrate John's life uh thank you and
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we now move on to the research seminar
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thank you Simon um along with other academic colleague Philippa we are the research leads from
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UTS uh we did wish to acknowledge the very positive engagement with physical disability Council and New South Wales
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and spinal cord injuries Australia and I'd like to invite first Diana Lucas
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Diane Lucas uh say your obscia and then Serena ovens CEO of pbcn to see a few
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words Diane thank you I just wanted to highlight how
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fantastic it's been to be part of this this research project I think one of the things Susie has who has been leading it
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for us has said that it's she was um it's one of the best practice models of collaboration engagement
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supporting people with disabilities to participate in the scheme in this project so it's been a fantastic project
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to be part of um it's obviously a very very important issue we um and something that is so
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important for obviously everyday living as well as the ability to be out and about and to be able to live your life
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and not have to worry about um something that it should be available wherever you go so I'm really excited to
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be part of it and looking forward to the discussion today and the findings
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thank you Diane uh Serena thanks Sid so again as you know I'm
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Serena I'm the CEO of the physical disability Council for those that may not know us Peterson is the peak body
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for people with physical disability in New South Wales our core work is to achieve equity for people with physical
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disability and ensure their full participation in New South Wales society and we do this mainly through systemic
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advocacy where a member-based organization so if you're not a member please think about joining us and I'll
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get hives to pop the link in the chat for you as well membership is free for people with physical disability and your
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voice experiences and opinions are the base for pdcns prioritizing the work we
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do to achieve inclusive change today I really like to take this opportunity to thank the UTS team for
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the opportunity to partner with them on what is still a major barrier to participation for many access to
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accessible bathrooms it's been a pleasure to work with Sid Simon Philippa Barbara and the team and
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alongside of spinal cord injuries Australia particularly Susie who's done so much of the work there for them and
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I'm eager as you to find out about the research and what it's found and the next steps to using this data to enact
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change lastly can I thank the more than 100 participants from pdcn who spent time
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inputting to the research project providing your valuable personal experiences ensure that rich detailed
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data makes a significant difference in the long run so thank you
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and I thank you both so much for your collaboration in making this pilot project such a success we've also
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benefited greatly from the enthusiastic and expert support provided by pharah Madden and Mark Ralph in particular
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now you'll also note that we've been mostly assisted by our wonderful team of researchers
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uh the necessary funding to undertake this work has been generously provided by UTS
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and of course the work relied heavily on the participation of you the wheelchair user community
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we're especially proud of the number of project participants highlighted here within Asterix who have direct lived
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experience of wheelchair use welcome everyone
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now there should be no need to convince wheelchair users as to the significance of accessible bathrooms
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there is however a real barrier and that is the accessible bathroom use of necessity remains a relatively private
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exercise it is something not often considered by the broader community
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but it is is you have made abundantly clear in this project a very significant issue if you are a wheelchair user
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my colleagues and I were originally approached by Mark Ralph to help him push to improve the current Australian
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design standards for accessible bathrooms those standards generally set minimum
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standards and that minimum standard tends to be what designers then specify
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but minimum specification actively discourages bathroom Innovation and
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tends to produce unsatisfactory outcomes perhaps that for perhaps the majority of wheelchair users
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minimum standards also tend to set the level of funding allocated to accessible bathrooms
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meaning again in other inadequate Provisions for some unsuitable or indeed
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unnecessary Provisions for others at that stage of course we get into
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having to retrofit bathrooms which everyone accepts is a very expensive option
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so best to try and get it right in the first place finally when you look at the evidence
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base for the current standards they are based largely on Research from the 1970s
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and 1980s those studies were narrowly focused on the scientific measurement of body sizes
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and physical abilities with groups of just a few dozen participants
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in the decades since which has changed about the people who use Mobility devices how they use bathrooms the
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mobility devices themselves and the bathroom products available yet the evidence base for the standards
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has not changed the evidence base has not changed in Australia in fact it has not changed
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globally our motivation here is that robust empirical and lived experience data of
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contemporary bathroom use will greatly strengthen the case for changes to the Australian standards
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first and foremost this was a pilot project aimed at demonstrating the feasibility and benefits of working in
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close collaboration with the community of wheelchair users it aimed to be inclusive because lived
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experience is so vital to understanding how people actually experience accessible bathrooms
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it aimed to be embodied because experience is a complex phenomenon
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experience is directly impacted by our perceptions our emotions our physiology
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and our agency in other words to understand experience
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we need to combine multiple lenses how are users predisposed to bathrooms
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how do they react to particular bathroom settings what are their motivations
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for those complementary lenses we require multiple and complementary research methods
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so we have combined a questionnaire survey that asks quite specific things
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of many people along with field studies that reveal new aspects of actual use
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along with interviews that probe in more depth and explore some of the important
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nuances to accessible bathroom use we would like to briefly review each of
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those quite separate but intentionally complementary studies
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so firstly with the online survey and starting with Simon over to you
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thank you very much uh remembering to press the view button again
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um so uh we carried out an online survey
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um but most importantly and I I am a person whose power wheelchair used to
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have been for uh almost 40 years now um we got together a team that included
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academics and Industry experts as we've said Mark Ralph and Farah Madden both
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the experienced people on the Australian standards committee and uh we then also
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engaged uh others from uh those that we we know from the community and we had 20
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people test that co-designed uh questionnaire we were able to build in
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the comments from power wheelchair users manual wheelchair users others who used
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other forms of Mobility AIDS before we learned launched the final survey that
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survey uh produce 209 completed responses
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and without going into a stat session uh
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we collected a series of descriptive statistics as well as uh inferential that look at between group differences
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so if I could come over to the next slide please so just some uh 94 were completed by
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people with disability the other six percent completed by significant others
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for example um parents or uh attendants that we're assisting it was across support needs
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from independent users through to those with very high support needs uh the
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daily Mobility AIDS and this was a multi-response question so it totals
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over a hundred sixty percent power wheelchair uses 55 manual wheelchair
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users scooters walking frames and lower limb Prosthetics the age range spans 60
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years from uh 28 to 80 and 55 were male
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and 44 female one percent identifying as non-binary
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so the stats results really showed that there was a um older respond respondent
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preference for grab rails given that their disability significantly increases
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with age uh and uh they um the higher the support
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needs the more space that was required and so this idea of a the footprint
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wheelchair footprint coming from the 1970s and 80s where all chairs including power chairs
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were much smaller and uh there was also a preference for
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those that transferred so if we go to the next slide Sid
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so the first stat uh press the button again is eight percent had a left-hand
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preference uh next 16 for right hand next 33 with no preference and could use
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both but 43 did not transfer while using the
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uh public bathrooms coming over said to the next slide
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so what did the survey results reveal well uh one public accessible bathrooms
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are upper avoided due to issues of access uh there's a major issue to do with
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manual door opening uh due to the strength required to open and many
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weren't compliant with that strength automatic doors were not available at
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most places there's a whole series of issues to do with privacy locks and
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security of bathroom doors a lack of space to move around within uh
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particularly where you've got a particular side preference to be able to use the various facilities and backrests
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and grab rails are contentious uh Philippa will talk more about the qualitative findings but just to tell
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you on the survey the open-ended responses uh generated 27 000 words of
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qualitative comments from the uh just over 200 users I'm going to hand back to Sid that's
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going to put the T technology into this University of Technology study
14:55
oh thanks Simon I saw where the online survey successfully produced statistically
15:01
significant empirical evidence the field study is more about experimental
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experimental in the sense that we're looking to develop and test a range of exciting and often entirely novel
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digital Technologies we aim to apply these emerging Technologies collectively to better
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understand how people experience the built environment and this is our entire laboratory that
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fits with ease into a regular backpack it comprises a discrete 360 video camera
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a an iPad Pro with onboard laser scanner
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at the an audio recorder with remote lapel mic capability at C
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a wristband device that measures various biometric markers d
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and the latest in eye tracking glasses that video record whatever the wearer is looking at at e
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we then have a suite of sophisticated software that enables us to synchronize
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and analyze all of the data from each of the devices recorded over time
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the 360 camera records images in every direction at the same time
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you can see what a 360 image looks like when projected onto a two-dimensional plane in the bottom left corner
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however using specialized apps we can then clear that image or video back and
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view it as a single view of field of view drag the cursor to move our field of
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view around the space even zoom in and out all in high resolution
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the laser scanner in the iPad creates what is called a point cloud of Any Given room
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the point Cloud measures the dimensions of every surface in the space with millimeter accuracy
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from the correct from the correctly dimensioned representation we can directly create an accurate 3D CAD model
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from the cad model we can produce scale drawings of plans elevations sections
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that capture the actual layout of the room with all fittings correctly located and
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scaled we can then overlay on each individual bathroom some of the critical
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requirements of the current standards in purple clear space around the toilet
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pan the required location of toilet flushing mechanisms the required location of toilet roll
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dispenser points Etc the drawings then highlight where the
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actual bathroom layout may not be satisfying the current standards in this case the toilet paper is
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presented from the base of the toilet roll mechanism and therefore outside the purple Zone it defines what is required
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by the standards
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the same iPad laser scanner can also be used to track its own movements through space
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so here the red line represents the iPad which we attach to the rear of each
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wheelchair for the duration of the simulated bathroom use
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each participant then simulates how they would use that particular bathroom including any maneuvering transfer
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procedures hygiene Etc the iPad remains attached to the
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wheelchair for the duration this simulation then shows how the
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movement of the iPad represented by the red line is tracked through the space and recorded
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using specialist software we can attach a scaled representation of the particular wheelchair model to the iPad
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as it moves through the space taking the wheelchair with it in this way we're able to replay the
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actual movement of the wheelchair for each participant as well
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the lapel mic records the comments of each participant in real time the audio can then be transcribed and
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time stamped for analysis
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the biometric wristband records medical grade high resolution and not 60 data
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points per second readings of loopholes volume body temperature hand movement
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and electrodermal activity all of which offer a unique window into
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the emotional and physical state of an individual as they experience the bathroom setting
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at the same time the eye tracking glasses or video recording what the user is observing and Tiny sensors in the
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glasses tracked the people movement to determine the precise point of focus within the
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view
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finally we have a suite of incredible software that provides a wealth of visualization and data analysis options
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this is where the rubber hits the road never before has such a rich combination
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of synchronized data being applied in this way the 360 images can be played in virtual
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reality headsets so we can place users designers or researchers right there in
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the room for auditing and training the card models can be interrogated to
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extract actual dimensions and to check compliance with key parts of the standards
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the wheelchair tracking is perhaps the most novel of our Technologies and we're still exploring the potential it offers
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to analyze wheelchair and wheelchair user movements to study clearances positions
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maneuverability alternative wheelchair designs Etc
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all of this information is accurately synchronized and time stamped
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software will automatically generate Peak maps of what each participant has
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focused their attention on or average multiple heat maps for multiple users
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the analysis software can also sequence the areas of attention to determine the order in which
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participants visually interrogate the space combined we get objective data on
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compliance movement attention and reactions this is truly game changing capability
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and all of the technology fits into a small backpack meaning it is highly
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portable quick to set up an easy chant to transport into bathrooms across the
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country so what have we learned from the field
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studies this far some key points first up nobody in our studies touched
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the grab rails when required it is the toilet seat that provides the critical Anchor Point
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of course when you audit 2021 accessible bathrooms as we now have you very
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quickly note that many toilet seats are unstable poorly maintained and loose fitting
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with the 360 degree images you can observe the lack of storage space for medical and other required procedures
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the lack of General wear spins and no specialist bins for medical waste
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our CAD models reveal the impact of adopting the same extra-large toilet roll dispensers in accessible toilets as
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in bathrooms more generally in accessible bathrooms the grab rails
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compete for the same wall space as the toilet roll dispenser mechanism
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the participant commentary recordings voice Commons concerns with the provision of backrests
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Biometrics highlight highlight which design features caused the most concern for users
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for example in our study it is the Dyson style above access hand dryers as a
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particular case in points eye tracking shows an almost Universal
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and habitual concern with the locking mechanism of the entrance Door
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we do have many other insights from our field studies but at this stage with only 10 up participants involved the
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results are more about the proof of concept and potential than they are about drawing strong conclusions
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with that I'll now pass over to Philippe to present our interview process phillipa thank you Sid
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um and thanks everyone for attending today I um as you can see the survey and
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the field studies are so exciting for their scalability um as much as the technology that's being used lots of this part of the
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project this next part that I'll be talking about today is the is the quality of a more um in-depth part of the project I had
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the privilege of speaking with everyone who completed their field study with Sid
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and got to have this really rich discussions that explored how people
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interact with accessible bathrooms how they experience all of the different
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elements within the bathroom um what what they liked and what they didn't like and
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um we uh but we were able to recruit six participants from pdcn and six from scia
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we conducted one-on-one interviews I'd like to thank all the participants who spent time with me um up to an hour each
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and we recorded and transcribed those um and they're being automatically
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analyzed as we speak so what I'm going to be talking today is some of the preliminary findings from that we were lucky to have a
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diversity of EX lived experience a range of different types of wheelchairs that
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people use are using um as well as catheterization and non-catheterization within our
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interviews I'm Sid if you'd like to go to the next slide some of the emerging themes that we
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found I mean there's the sheer diversity of use the different ways that people interact with all the different elements
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that we find within accessible bathrooms and people's preferences and the role that or how people's unique lived
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experiences will inform directly how they interact with all of the items within an accessible bathroom
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and some of the features that we would talk about were of course the toilet is front and center but also toilet paper
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use preferences um how hand washing and hand drying preferences the types of
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grab rails that people use and also entrance security door locks
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and layout what was particularly interested is the way that um well people talked about
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avoiding public bathrooms altogether and if uh if they're aware of a particularly
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poor poorly maintained public bathroom the role that hygiene plays in whether
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or not um people will interact with public bathrooms of course
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um and but also if they're not avoiding the amount of preparation the need for
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preparedness and planning and perhaps to know where the bathrooms are but also when you're using you know the different
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designs of bathrooms um the order of accessing paper where to
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put catheterization equipment Etc is something that we talked about a
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lot and I think it really interesting is look at the variety of risks and safety issues that came out the risks that
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people take by simply using a an accessible bathroom um and the role that design plays there
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in mitigating those risks or accentuating those risks um hygiene who can talk about public
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bathrooms without talking about hygiene everyone's been in one of those absolutely
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revolting disastrous bathrooms that we don't have to interact with and we had so many stories of people who
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um you know are forced to get quite close and to the bowl of the toilet that you know we really don't don't want to
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be in you know our faces don't want to be close to our bodies being close to so we highlighted just how critical
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maintenance of bathroom is and how often it's not um it's not done well
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um the other um theme that came up is the role of privacy and dignity and the role
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that design plays you know automatic locks that were particularly sensitive and would open uh when people were in
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the middle of using them um and I think what was uh great to talk
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about too are people's pet peeves what are people really not like in accessible bathrooms
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um as well as all of the design features that are working really well for people can you go to the next side thanks slid
28:29
so um I've chosen just a couple of themes that have been have come out of
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the interviews that we conducted um and giving you a few examples of some
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of the quotes that have come out um I think something that's not talked about a lot is uh Catholic use and and
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the how the range of catheter use will Define how people interact with a toilet
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um whether people transfer um in order to use a catheter whether they don't need to transfer
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and the importance of storage you know sterile storage areas and Disposal areas
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in the bathroom and you can see that of course you know the risks that people
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take when a toilet is not clean um a person on the screen one person's
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quote use my pet peeves when toilets are not clean our faces and bodies have to get really close to the toilet bowl with
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the catheter um and uh one of the other quotes here
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is is people assume because I catheterized that I don't actually get on the toilet well I've gotten on the
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toilet every single time for over 25 years so the sheer diversity of use
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um is something that um I think is you know it does present a design challenge but it's so important to have an
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understanding of how people actually use these spaces and the equipment that they're using in these spaces
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in order to design better Sid could you go to the next slide thank you of course another really important
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part of our conversations was toilet transferring for people who did transfer and again as Sid mentioned the
30:04
fact that that toilet seat really effectively becomes another grab rail within the space
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um and how um some of the um those are often not secured properly
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um and some of you may not be surprised if that backrest comes up as a point of conversation
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um for for many many of the participants um particularly for people who transfer
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onto the toilet and use a catheter because it seems to push people far forward which can increase the risk of
30:36
over balancing and needing that space to actually access um you know in front of themselves in
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the while they're on the toilet uh and the height of toilet bowls you know and what works for some people
30:48
doesn't work for other people and that there's a real variety of hot toilet Heights that people find within accessible bathrooms that presented a
30:55
challenge thanks Sid could you go to the next slide um I'd like to talk a little bit about
31:01
the risks that people take when they are um in their day-to-day use of accessible
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toilets some people may not have a break on their uh on their wheelchair and of
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course the gradient in a bathroom floor can mean that you have to be very they have to be very very careful and have
31:19
their hands on the chair at all times
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um the mounting of that toilet paper holder that Sid also mentioned are quite a few people mentioned that that by the
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time you when you reach down to actually access the toilet paper people are risking um falling onto the floor
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because it's so low um and because the center of gravity is is placed you know away from the from the toilet itself
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and also when using those toilet seats and grabbing onto them they can be sharp on the edges preventing people from
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getting a really good grip and that can risk people's stability
31:56
um and and that's falling off that toilet or ending up on the floor is a really significant risk
32:02
um can you go to the next slide said I think that might be up to you nanya so I'll go back to you now said thank you
32:08
yes thanks uh Philippa but we began our presentation today by
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noting how bathroom use is something that typically gets hidden behind closed doors and it's a private experience for
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most of us but that also means it is really discussed and the majority of the
32:25
population will have never even ventured inside an accessible bathroom
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the significance of that is it's difficult to empathize with the problem when you have no personal experience of
32:36
that problem so what we want to do is to Leverage The findings of this pilot project to both
32:42
educate and provoke in addition to the empirical data from
32:48
the survey the variety of visualizations from our field studies and the telling voices of lived
32:54
experience we are producing a series of graphic illustrations to help communicate the
33:00
messages overall we will write for the conversation for
33:06
Professional Publications and Advocate with government agencies and the various standards committees
33:13
it's about shining a timely and focused light on this much neglected but
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significant aspect of accessing the building the built environment
33:26
so where to next where do we take the project the collaborations the industry support and
33:33
your participation from here absolutely in the coming months we aim
33:39
to translate our findings from your participation into articles and visual
33:44
resources particular to wheelchair use of public accessible bathrooms full stop
33:50
that said however all along we have been advised that the most pressing need is for empirical data
33:57
articulate to domestic and residential settings the current design standards for
34:02
accessible bathrooms are especially poorly served with data from domestic settings
34:08
the multi-method approach we've developed including the portable Technologies now makes empirical study a
34:15
domestic settings entirely feasible
34:21
along with accessible bathrooms of course there are many other elements of the built environment that warrant the
34:27
form of inclusive and embodied research approach we have demonstrated in this pilot project
34:33
kitchens entrances showers indeed every room in every type of building homes
34:40
hotels schools hospitals aged care all would benefit from a mixed method an
34:47
inclusive approach similar to what has been developed and employed in this pilot project
34:54
similarly as well as wheelchair access other access issues could and should be
34:59
investigated but the mobility issues visual impairment aging
35:06
we all experience the built environment in different ways however as this pilot study demonstrates
35:13
we can now begin to reveal more and more about how different those experiences
35:18
can be we can use emerging Technologies to complement traditional modes of
35:24
Investigation take our research instruments out into the community and into authentic user
35:31
settings involve the community not just to study subjects but as meaningful members of
35:38
the research team we do hope you consider this pilot
35:43
project has taken an important step in the right direction and we very much thank you all once
35:49
again for your willing participation in encouraging support thank you
36:00
we did think that we would uh like to have a small pool of the audience and so there's a little provocative
36:06
quote there I no longer use public toilets so sometimes I just go out to think I just don't go out to things
36:14
and so there's a pool now available to you to ask if you've ever avoided a social situation because you could not
36:21
find a suitable accessible bathroom so if you'd like to just respond to that
36:28
as we go through we can now open the law to any questions or comments please
36:50
so I can see Cara's got her handle Kara do you want to go hi
36:56
um thanks for inviting me here today it was um it was great to participate in
37:01
this project I just have a question um obviously we have heard and
37:08
um that there are a lot of different preferences would there ever be um like I guess
37:14
a push for multiple options so for example not just to have the flush button behind you but also have a like
37:21
the flash button behind you but also have like a lever on the side or different
37:26
um positions or for uh the toilet paper say one beside you a bit higher one this
37:33
side you know on a general level I mean would that ever be an option
37:42
but um I think um the the question of whether what options
37:47
there may be will come down to um funding and standards determination so we don't determine the standards but
37:54
we can help influence and advise and promote changes to those standards and
38:01
um what we're trying to do is to develop a an empirical data set that we can use to convince the standards committees and
38:09
others that those sorts of changes are appropriate and so there's a a raft of different
38:16
possibilities that we can we can go back to the standards committees with
38:21
um the those the strongest ones will be whatever the current empirical evidence we have supports and if in future we
38:28
have further evidence that supports uh multiple options as you as you indicate
38:33
then obviously that's something that we also uh seek to promote
38:38
foreign there's a couple of comments in the chat said Ali Robertson's um suggested that
38:46
we need more changing Place toilets
38:53
uh well again you know the um there's a range of different
38:59
requirements that that we can look for and certainly in the audit that we've
39:04
done um of 21 different bathroom settings uh there were very minimal changing places
39:10
available within those uh within those set um but until or unless we can do a more
39:16
comprehensive uh study of the of what kind of level of availability there is
39:22
or lack of the availability which I'm sure it will be the case um the changing places are an additional
39:28
option so again you know I don't want to set the expectations too high for this
39:34
project um that that there's been so little research done on accessible bathrooms
39:41
that um the moment we look at it a whole range of different issues begin to reveal
39:47
um but we will be able to take some very constructive empirical evidence from the research and use that to promote for
39:54
genuine change in the building standards within Australia we've also got I think it's John Nugent
40:01
who's commented that some of the least accessible public locations are doctors offices x-ray dentists Hospital
40:07
administrative areas um and if anything people would have thought that they would have been the
40:13
most Cutting Edge for having accessible facilities um Diane agreed with that yeah I agree
40:19
with that too that's so interesting isn't it you we would think that they would have the most accessible settings and often they don't
40:25
um I also just like to respond to Kara's initial comment just about design because having a background as a
40:32
designer the so interesting that you mentioned how do you how do you accommodate for such diversity of use
40:38
with one design of a bathroom and I think that's one of the the big challenges that will eventually kind of
40:44
have to face I think this Pro what this project does is the very important first step is to say all right how are people
40:50
using it what is important what are the different aspects though that are important and what we might find is for
40:56
example you gave the example of toilet paper we we might find that there is a way of Designing you know a dispenser
41:03
that has multiple access points I mean that's where you know good design and more really targeted good design kind of
41:09
comes into play it's a little bit kind of further down the track from this particular
41:14
um particular kind of piece of research but something that I'm really interested in too Cara like how do we you know
41:21
accommodate everyone's individual needs in one design that I can also see that Liz has her
41:27
hands up
41:34
every um it is about Victoria I was involved I
41:41
had the fortune that I've been able to do what we call the toilet so
41:47
um in reviewing uh a bathroom that had just been designed on the river
41:57
um now what we found was with the boxes of the you know how the
42:03
with that design that you've just done uh looked at with the systems in the
42:09
back of the wall it is impossible for a lot of people to be able to have the
42:14
strength to push those buttons in what um we had the
42:21
there was a too hard I've never had this ability and
42:27
another lady that also had I had disability as well and
42:34
I were talking to the Architects about this design and what they have come up
42:39
with is they were going to put systems in that of um a stainless steel and there's
42:46
the new um it's time to stove I have found that very strong and
42:53
will withstand um you know been erect
43:00
um they were also going to put in what they found was there is a high need for people
43:06
that needed showers um and they were going to put a hot and
43:12
cold showers and and what they were going to do was put all this design through the whole
43:17
Council but every new um bathroom that they had built
43:24
thanks for the manic Dawn which was the Great great was really
43:31
you know a great um asset for the whole community
43:37
um thank you um you mentioned the automatic doors and Chris and Rochelle have also put some
43:43
comments in um Chris Sparks says the accessible toilet doors on the brand new hospital at bega weigh a ton and have no
43:50
automatic functionality um and he's quite astounded that that is in a new situation something that's
43:56
occurred and Rochelle asked said whether you looked at the width of doors
44:02
um there seems to be a range of widths weights of doors and opening sweep of doors
44:08
in the reporting 28 standards yeah that also depends on the space of where the
44:14
bathroom is important because you need a certain width for the doors to be able to slide open
44:20
yeah they'll pass back to Simon I think he wants to comment on that one sorry yeah I know there's a number of comments
44:28
first off uh there's some really cool Innovations going on around uh you know
44:34
the uh the the pressing of buttons and uh you know the combination of proximity
44:42
sensors to buttons is already out there and available
44:47
um sometimes it becomes a cost issue and that's also
44:52
um you know when they're looking in the short term it comes back to inverted
44:58
commas compliance what is the minimum rather than what is the maximum use of
45:04
facility you'll get if it incorporates Innovative design that gives you the
45:10
independence and dignity of being able to get in and out of a toilet by yourself I mean I've recently been stuck
45:18
uh you know in a facility that was a brand new design only a few years ago
45:24
and they they made a conscious decision not to put in the auto opener doors now
45:30
that's terrible for a major public facility so there's a politics around it and it
45:37
certainly lives fantastic that uh you know the the Albury council is going to have a
45:43
um a whole of area approach to putting in best practice rather than minimum
45:48
standards thank you for those examples there obviously is the issue too of of
45:56
where the toilets are placed and the fact that when you're traveling being able to access a toilet particularly if
46:03
you need a changing place and the details that you might have to do or the limited amount of time you can spend out
46:09
in order to feel comfortable and find what you need
46:14
yes and in our audit we also found that a number of the accessible bathrooms were behind security doors where you
46:21
couldn't actually get to them on particular floors um but I think just in response to the measuring door access widths um the
46:30
benefit of the scanner is that it will capture those sorts of Dimensions uh from the room once we've gone in and
46:36
scanned the space and we can then use the cad system to interrogate individually those those Dimensions but
46:44
also all of the other dimensions within each individual bathroom setting I suppose the one thing we can't
46:50
estimate within all of this is the weight of the door and the ability to open or close it physically
46:57
you can certainly test what those forces are and I think it's 19 Newtons it's
47:02
supposed to be uh but there's no doubt that um the location uh does affect the
47:09
ability to get the chair close enough and somebody with my dexterity
47:14
um it's almost impossible you can either get it opened and then it closes on you then you can't get back out or not the
47:21
other way so there's a whole series of those issues about in uh you know getting in and getting out safely that
47:29
become uh you know quite uh quite serious for for those that are involved
47:35
in it one other question about the um uh particular no no Chris Sparks has just
47:41
done a tour from Vega up to cans and back uh being able to plan your trips
47:48
and find accessible lose uh or stations that'll give you a hand if you needed
47:55
filling petrol is one of those other ones that becomes critical to being able to travel in Regional New South Wales uh
48:03
or Regional Victoria or anywhere else in the country as well so that that idea of
48:09
having that an updated version of the gis for accessible news in the country
48:14
is also something that is of tremendous benefit not only to us socially but also
48:22
to those areas uh economically if they want to get people to travel to them
48:28
fix also mentioned in the chat said that Architects have to attain CPD points so
48:33
professional develop points to stay registered every year and this sort of research would be great for them to be
48:39
able to do on um that and get those that experience and knowledge that they may not get
48:45
normally he's also said can anyone help him if he um if as he's doing a
48:51
presentation to a group next week and um wants to know about what the VCA doesn't
48:57
tell you about being a wheelchair user he's popped his email in the chat if
49:03
anyone wants to to reach out to him to assist so my question if and I can't see any
49:09
other hands and I do apologize if you do have a hand up or I'm missing you please let me know just call out at this point
49:15
in time um what's the next step Sid are you going to take this and broaden your
49:20
study get more people more areas will you take it to
49:25
um the as as Simon mentioned obviously minimum standards in terms of the
49:32
building standards are just that minimum we're seeing that there's so much more needed I was really interested to hear
49:39
Philippa um and hadn't really thought about the fact that many people want some sterile place that they can put
49:46
their um pieces of equipment Etc that they need rather than in their chair
49:51
um how do we design something that fits and will make that accessible and feasible for everybody in the different
49:57
users what's what's next on the agenda
50:03
well I think um the the next thing on the agenda is to try and raise more public awareness and more
50:10
um professional awareness as to the issues that have been revealed from the study and so it really is about uh
50:17
provoking and um and educating the uh the decision
50:22
makers and the the um the community in general to raise awareness of these
50:28
kinds of issues that we very much like to expand and extend the the research
50:34
that we've done and so we'll also of course be looking for some funding to support that process as well
50:42
a couple more comments in the chat um one is are hoists going to become a minimum standard will we see them in
50:48
bathrooms again I'm not a um I don't sit on the
50:55
standards committee so I'm not an expert in in the um in the specifications side I know that there's a a current review
51:03
and a new standards will be announced soon um but that's for the uh standards
51:10
committee to determine will this information go to them though so they can see all the bits and pieces
51:18
that have come out of this and sorry Simon I didn't mean to talk over you no no one uh certainly that's uh that's
51:24
what we're doing and of course with uh industry Partners like um Mark and Farah
51:30
who are deeply ingrained on those various committees that will be a you
51:36
know one of the things that we're doing uh but also uh Diane's put up uh you
51:42
know a very interesting comment around how do we go about uh prioritizing critical services for our advocacy
51:48
campaigns uh using the evidence that comes out of this project so both uh you
51:54
know all organizations that have got an advocacy role in this space we're very
52:00
happy to talk to and also uh formulize uh strategies moving forward
52:06
um people know me I've been around a while uh I don't do research to get Journal articles I get do research to
52:14
get involved in getting social change and uh that's yeah you know that's the
52:20
next complete uh you know complex part of the puzzle uh and with your assistance Diane Serena all the great uh
52:27
you know policy officers that are there uh we're happy to um you know get together and brainstorm where we should
52:34
be going and uh more importantly too how we do that and how we uh use the
52:40
Fantastic Tech that Sid's brought into that as that you know a little bit of a
52:45
gee whiz to get those social media campaigns up and running a couple more notes in the chat for you
52:52
and Robin thank you um she said she sits on the standards and she's here so great
52:57
to have someone listening in that can feed back directly as well um John Nugent also said it should be also
53:04
good to recognize some of the good work and obviously some of the major shopping centers are starting to provide
53:10
reasonable toilet accessibility um Macquarie in um Sydney and New South Wales for one in his opinion again I
53:18
guess that depends John on what you need and what's what's in place but then absolutely
53:26
more questions I was just going to jump in and ask one
53:32
quickly if that's all right you made sure so what's the full name of the standards committee that we're referring
53:38
to so it's the it's the Australian building
53:44
standards that we're talking about and this standards and Robin you might want to
53:51
clarify specifically if you like save me the whole group of Standards is called
53:57
as1428 and there are currently yeah not they're not all called up into
54:04
the building code so that's one issue in itself um uh and it is it's the access and
54:12
Mobility for new building work and so the thing that I'm sitting here worrying about as well is that those
54:20
um toilets that are new and that for example don't have compliant door clear
54:25
door openings should have been signed off by a building certifier or an access consultant and that obviously isn't
54:32
happening as well so we've got a whole follow one of issues that are happening
54:38
here and the other problem you know that which we started at the beginning is that that standard which was based on
54:45
very old research didn't actually even include people who use um electric wheelchairs it's only from
54:51
manual Wheelchairs and so you know it excluded a huge number of people and and
54:57
the reason why we haven't been able to change that is because we haven't had
55:03
the research so I think this is really key because we are doing
55:09
um it's a challenge to convince the building industry that they need to
55:15
pay for and include for example um automated doors that's that's
55:21
anything that's involves cost is always a battle but if we've got the research to actually say
55:29
that's what that's what you need um then we've got a much stronger voice because we
55:36
it is a challenge thank you Robin um I do understand that I just wanted to
55:42
say one make one point obviously building um accessible toilets or anything
55:48
accessible does involve a cost but as we've seen if the cost is being spent
55:54
even if it's not meeting the needs so I think the money would be more well spent
56:00
um and get more quality out of the the money long term if it actually met the needs of the consumer oh I don't
56:07
disagree in any way shape or form I mean the huge issue at the moment for example is that trying to get just minimum
56:14
access into residential buildings here in New South Wales has been rejected on
56:21
the grounds of cost which we have actual research that proves that that's not not correct but that's what's happened so
56:29
you know unfortunately we all you do everybody needs to speak up it's really
56:35
important that you know and it's not just seen as a minority issue and but
56:41
you know we have to comply with the disability Discrimination Act as well you know that those things are just being pushed to
56:47
one side so you know the idea of promoting the issue is I think is great
56:52
I think it's really important we need to be more I mean I think it's hard when you know
56:59
you can't easily just use a basic toilet um and [Music]
57:05
and then we're asking you to stand up and and promote that issue but I think that's that seems to me there's little
57:11
option really absolutely thanks Robin and thanks for
57:17
clarifying um and you're absolutely right the fact that we can't get New South Wales the largest state in the country to accept
57:24
minimum um sort of a livable design standards is absolutely frightening
57:30
um and something that a number of our organizations are working on every single day at the moment not having much
57:36
luck but we're working hard and there'll be a parliamentary Forum next week to actually talk to the broader issues as
57:43
well as the NCC guidelines but um many of the housing issues for people who
57:49
live in New South Wales all over so everyone I'm aware that we're just
57:54
over time I don't think there's any other hands up and um if I've missed you I do apologize there's a few more things
58:01
in the chat um that I'll make sure are captured and given to the research team so it can be put with all the other researchers well
58:08
um and at this time I will take the time to say thank you everyone for attending and for your time
58:15
um once we finish we will as we said have a recording that we can send out to you and you can pass that on to others
58:21
if they're interested and I'm pretty sure the UTS team will be Keen to link with people moving forwards um to tell
58:28
you about next steps if they are looking to engage with people further so by all
58:33
means we have most of your email addresses and we'll reach out and let you know if there's more to come and if
58:39
you'd like to be a part we'd greatly welcome your involvement so thank you to
58:44
the UTS team to the seaa team and to everyone online I appreciate your time
58:50
and efforts