Recording: Part of the Story

Transcript – Part of the Story: How Multicultural Australians can Advocate for Reconciliation 

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Hello, everyone.  We won't be starting quite yet.  We'll just be waiting for a few more people to come in and then we'll start in a few minutes' time.    

So this is the point in any online event where we pretend nothing is happening and we pretend we're somewhere else.  So at this point you can watch me awkwardly look  yes, that's right.  We've got Iva pointing to her beautiful background, yes, and look at my beautiful background, all blurred.  Isn't that so beautiful?    

Hello, everyone.  We are officially starting our panel today and I'd love to welcome everyone to our special event, Part of the Story: How Multicultural Australians can advocate for Reconciliation.  My name is Elaine Laforteza and I'm really happy to facilitate this webinar today.    

But before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, on whose country I am currently Zooming from today, and I'd like to pay my respects to Elders past and present and acknowledge any First Nations person joining us today.  I'd also like to acknowledge that as a nonIndigenous migrant to this country, I've accrued a whole host of privileges based on the ongoing dispossession of Indigenous sovereignty, so I acknowledge my own commitment to decolonising work.    

A couple of pieces of housekeeping first.  Today's event is being live captioned and to view the captions, please click on the "CC" button in your Zoom control panel at the bottom of your screen, or you can click on the link that's in the chat.    

If you have any questions during today's event, please type them into the Q&A box, which you can also find in your Zoom control panel.  You can upvote questions that others have asked and we will be going back to the top ones that have been voted.  Please do try to keep them relevant to the topics we're discussing today.  We're also recording today's session, which is great because if you'd like to go back through anything that we've covered, you can do so and you can share the video link with your networks.  

Now, it's always a timely moment to come together in support of reconciliation, so I thank all of you for joining us today, and I'd like to thank our panellists for being here today.  We have Associate Professor Sukhmani Khorana, from the School of Arts and Media at UNSW.  She has published on media diversity, multiplatform refugee narratives, and the politics of empathy.  She is the author of Mediated Emotions of Migration: Reclaiming Affect for Agency and The Tastes and Politics of InterCultural Food in Australia.  Sukhmani is a member of the independent collective South Asians for Voice and a coinvestigator on a Settlement Services International research project that explores refugee and Indigenous connections.    

Joining her is Indu Balachandran.  Indu is a Global Atlantic Fellow in Social Equity and has held senior positions in the Indigenous and social purpose sector, most recently as Director at the Aboriginal Housing Office.  Indu is coChair of Community Resources (environmental services), and on the Advisory Board of Western Sydney University's Institute of Culture and Society.  Indu draws on her skills and qualifications in political economy, arts, finance and social change to effect systems change for social and cultural equity, sustainability and vibrancy.  Indu plays the veena in the Indian Carnatic musical tradition and her recent work includes Bhoomi: Our Country for the Sydney Festival and Belvoir Theatre's production The Jungle and the Sea.    

On our panel we also have Nour Al Hammouri.  Nour is a PalestinianAustralian Muslim studying Advanced Science, majoring in PreMedicine, at UTS.  He also serves as the UTS Students' Association President and the Student Representative on both Faculty and Academic Board for Science.    

And last but definitely not least we have Dr Iva Ponton.  Iva is a Senior Research Fellow at Griffith University.  Iva has spent the last 25 years as an educator and researcher on projects focused on designing strategies to enhance student success in the transition from school to the tertiary sector.  She is passionate about utilising Pasifika Indigenous methodologies when supporting communities to achieve educational and social outcomes with success.    

Wow, that is a whole heap of accomplished, wonderful, caring, intelligent people to be on a panel with today and I am super thrilled and humbled to be facilitating this wonderful group of people.    

So I'd like to start with something general.  Now, think about this.  Migrants come to Australia with their own stories.  Some, but not all of them, come with histories of oppression and violence, and when they come to Australia, they may also experience racism, discrimination, prejudice, and I've heard a lot of people of colour, nonIndigenous folk, say that it wasn't their ancestors that stole the land, so why should they care, why should we care?  With all of this, why then do they, do we, need to take on any responsibility for Indigenous sovereignty?  I'd like to start with Sukhmani, please.  

ASSOC. PROF. SUKHMANI KHORANA:  Thank you, Elaine, for that wonderful introduction and I'd also like to acknowledge that I'm speaking here today from Bidjigal land and that sovereignty was never ceded.    

So there's two main reasons that migrants should care, whether they came here 10 years ago or whether their ancestors came here two generations ago.  The first reason is that even if your ancestors are not directly involved in colonisation, we and you are a beneficiary of colonisation, so that makes us complicit.  We're all benefiting from the fact that we're living on stolen land.  So whether or not our ancestors were directly involved, we do owe it to the First Nations of Australia to show solidarity in their struggles and be mindful of their histories.    

And the second reason, which I think is quite important in light of the upcoming referendum and the ongoing efforts towards reconciliation, is that as far as racism and discrimination is concerned, our struggles are intertwined, so it's important to realise that the violence that was inflicted upon Indigenous people is foundational violence in this country in the settler colony as far as racism is concerned.  So racism for minorities is not going to go away if they act more white or if they, you know, just keep climbing up the socioeconomic ladder.  So it is really important that we address the foundational violence which was committed to Indigenous people by taking these steps and it is only then that racism and discrimination towards all other racialised minorities in this country can begin to be addressed in a structural, systemic, holistic way.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thank you so much, Sukhmani, for that.  What really jumped out at me there was when you said our struggles are intertwined and that forms the foundational ways in which we can belong in this country or how we don't belong at times.  So if someone else suffers within this community that we all live in, we all suffer.  Thanks for that, Sukhmani.    

I would like to go to Indu now.  Why then do we need to take on any responsibility for Indigenous sovereignty?    

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  Thanks, Elaine.  I am calling in from Gamaragal, Cammeraygal, Darramurragal land, it's still being re known.  They're traditional owners of where I am and I pay my respects to the Elders.    

Great question and I suppose  you know, agreeing with all of Sukhmani's discussions, I suppose I'll take a slightly different angle to it as well and add to that, you know, when I moved here in the 80s, I was in high school and very little  really as migrants then, particularly skilled migrants, you know, one's entire focus was forward looking and building our futures and reestablishing ourselves after a period of great dislocation which all migrants face and I think over time, you know, one starts to have to think about your position to place and I think it should be personal, I think it is important to understand that these are structural issues and historical issues, but we all have a present position to it and that actually we all have agency in this time and place to think about what kind of future we want to live in together and take some responsibility for making that future.    

So in some ways, you know, when I talk to my friends and family and people in the community, because I suppose I work more in the social sector and within my own community, the conversations I have are really more about even though our ancestors weren't directly responsible, what is our position as Indian migrants and, you know, we have  we are the products of colonisation.  We've endured it, our families have endured it in India, and actually, you know, we have reestablished our sovereignty and in some ways to think about what that means.  Particularly in our community Republic Day falls on 26th of January.  So, you know, every year I'm involved in events and, you know, we have conversations, they're really important conversations, and what is the meaning of celebrating India becoming a republic on the same day that the First Peoples of this country are mourning invasion and loss of  and genocide and loss of their histories and languages and cultures and political autonomy.    

So I think structurally very important to understand that we all have ongoing responsibility, but in some ways, you know, also to think about what is our personal position to it and making it make sense for us.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Mmm.  I think that was such a poetic way of unpacking this quite complex question about where we come from, we need to really recognise, acknowledge and unpack that, the nuances of that, to know where we are at the present moment and how we connect and how we can move on and how to create those solidarities.    

And I resonate with so much with what you said, especially  my background is I'm a Filipino migrant to this country and we too in the Philippines have experienced nearly 400 years of Spanish colonisation and then about 30 years of American imperialism, so how can I  I always think we've lived through that history of colonisation, how can I use that as a point of connection to connect to where I am now?    

But I'd also like to go to Iva then and ask you the same question  why do we need to take on any responsibility for any of this?  Oh, and Iva, just press the mute button.  

DR IVA PONTON:  Before I begin, I respectfully acknowledge the Yugarabul, Yagara, Jagera, Turrbal, Yugambeh and  Kombumerri peoples are the traditional owners and custodians of the land on which I live and work.  I pay my respect to Elders past and present.    

So recapping the question again, taking responsibility for   

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  For Indigenous sovereignty, yes, and ways forward to supporting reconciliation.  

DR IVA PONTON:  So in terms of taking responsibility and supporting it as we benefit from migrating to these lands that we are responsible in contributing to positive ways of doing and knowing to support First Nations and not only do we come with our backgrounds, our cultural backgrounds, it's also most important to support the lands and traditions of those that we come and reside and those lands that we come and reside and making sure that we are in alignment with and respectful of those traditional beliefs.  They're not homogenous, they're quite different, as much as we are quite different in our own traditional cultures and beliefs, so I think that's really key to playing a part as being positive residents or citizens and contributors to residing here in Australia.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Yes, thanks so much, Iva, and that's such an important point to make, just to mark out the diversity, right, that it's not  we're not talking about homogenous groups of people, that it is very multicultural even before multiculturalism became a buzz word.    

Now I'll go with you, Nour.  Why then do we need to take on any responsibility for Indigenous sovereignty?    

NOUR AL HAMMOURI:  Thank you.  So before I do start, I'd just like to mention that I was born and raised on unceded Bidjigal land and I also would like to extend my respects to the Gadigal people where I'm standing on right now.    

And before I start, I also wanted to sort of provide some context.  So my connection with the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples here runs on a personal cultural relationship.  So I'm Palestinian and I understand very deeply the ongoing effects of British colonisation and the ongoing struggle for selfdetermination very strongly, which is why I get involved in these sorts of initiatives, and what we've sort of been discussing previously why we should be getting involved is because when we come to Australia, we expect to belong and unfortunately the Indigenous population here do not feel like they belong at a constitutional level, which is why sort of this stuff is important that we're sort of advocating for and advocating for the inclusion as well.    

And, you know, a lot of the time multicultural people, we also come from backgrounds where we sort of have faced colonisation, have faced the struggle for selfdetermination and all of this stuff, so for some of us we've been successful in sort of reaching selfdetermination, but for some of us  like from where I come from, we're still trying to fight for that, which is why I'm, you know, doing my efforts here and there because I know what it's like to sort of not be recognised and not feel like you actually matter to the Government in any way other than just statistically.    

And what we're trying to do for reconciliation Voice here in Australia is what I'd love to see back home, so if I can do it here and I can learn from the struggles here, I can potentially sort of learn and bring it into my own country as well, which is sort of why me personally I get involved and why it's important for multicultural people also to be getting involved more and more because there's so many lessons that we can learn from this and it's also our duty as people who come from marginalised backgrounds to be paying it forward because we came to this country and we  you know, we really benefited from the social aspect and the social fabric of this society.  Why aren't we sort of paying it forward to the Indigenous and, you know, the custodians of this land?  And for me like there's no two ways about it, it's like for most of us we recognise what it means to be an Indigenous person of that land and we also recognise what it means to not feel like you truly connect and belong to the country that you're in, unfortunately, which is why we need to be outspoken and fighting alongside of them and supporting and making sure that everything is working the way that they want as well.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Mmm, and I really like how you've put that perspective, that framing around it, Nour, "what they want".  It's not for us to lead in that case, but to really deeply listen and to support in the ways that we can, and I see some resonance, as Sukhmani was saying earlier about our struggles are intertwined, and how we can actually use that in the same way that Indu was talking about, the way that we can use this point as our point of connection.  So thank you for answering those questions so thoughtfully, everyone.    

I'm going to now put the spotlight on Iva because I know that you're passionate about utilising Pasifika Indigenous methodologies when supporting communities to achieve educational and social outcomes and I'm super curious about this.  So can you tell us more about this and how this would relate to supporting communities to work together in support of reconciliation?    

DR IVA PONTON:  Thank you, Elaine.  I think the beauty of coming from various backgrounds is we come with nuances and with the Pasifika or Busfika methodologies, we're able to utilise from different Pacific nations our traditions and with that the different languages.    

So the way in which I've used Pacific methodologies in my own educational research and PhD and education from the University of Melbourne is I couldn't find a specific methodology within the dominant culture, whether it's qualitative or quantitative, to fit the study I was doing, and that study was looking at why is it that there were not enough people like me in the tertiary institutions that I was studying at, and I actually had to go outside of Australia and go to where the work was being done in New Zealand and say oh, you know, you go back to the leaders, you go back to the cultural protocols, and for me that was having the talanoa, which is the communication, the discussions with the elders, the leaders of the church communities, the leaders of the communities per se within Melbourne, with Samoan community, and finding out what were the needs of people within those communities and what could I bring or add value to supporting young people as well as their parents and carers to navigate the Australian education system with success.    

And what that came down to, it was not just providing a service to just the young people in high schools.  When you're looking at Pacific methodologies, it's quite collective, it's not to the individual.  So when adding value and adding  and providing a service or support, I had to provide it not just to the young people who required homework study assistance or learning engagement strategies or strategies to best understand their educators.  It was about supporting their younger siblings, their cousins, relatives.    

And it was predominantly the parents, the mothers, who were bringing kids to these study groups that were set up in public libraries because, again, they didn't necessarily have the resources at home, so it was providing a space where can we come to meet together as a collective, what can I do, so it was using bilingual questionnaires and support in that way too.    

So the talanoa was bilingual.  It was not just to one, it was to the collective.  It was going to meeting them where they're at, and sometimes that was going to churches, and so forth.  So that included the til lava, building rapport.  You know, sometimes it takes more than just one meeting or interview of parents coming to schools, and so forth, you have to go meet them where they're at.  So where do the communities meet  is it churches, is it at the sporting events, is it at a playground  and in order to build that rapport, which is til lava in Samoan Pacific methodologies, it's to meet people where they're at, and I think that is influential in trying to build harmonious strategies and rapport with everyone so that we could be more productive as positive contributors to the society in which we live in.    

So in a nutshell, that's how I've utilised Pacific methodologies residing in Australia, but also taking that into research.  There's fa'afaletui, which is another way of using Samoan chief or matai protocols to welcome and also to acknowledge people to know their titles, to know their standing in society.  So I think if I were to take that to a comparative group, whether it's First Nations or Maori, you know, finding out what are your protocols, who do we speak to in terms of hierarchy and how are we best to address them and learning their ways, and it's not just the dominant culture, you know, the west is best but, you know, consider other ways of knowing and being and learning and I think that leads to an overall process and picture of reconciliation.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thank you so much, Iva.  I think you've already mapped out some really practical ways in which we can engage with this, meeting people where they're at, really exercising that deep cultural humility and deep listening as well to know how people fit into the system and that sense of paying it forward that Nour was talking about that you said the mothers bring their children, but it's not just for the children, it's also for the whole community, so it's kind of a snowball effect where everyone is involved and everyone is cared for and care for each other.  So thank you so much for that, Iva.    

Now I want us to think about the recent National Press Club that occurred on the 5th of July.  So this is when the Indigenous Australians Minister, Linda Burney, noted that June's closing the gap data showed only 4 out of 19 targets are on track, while key measures, such as life expectancy, housing and healthy birth weights of Indigenous babies, are not.  She said, "If we needed any more evidence that more of the same isn't good enough, this is it."  So I pose to all of you today what different things do we need then and what kind of support is needed to enable this?  And I'll start with Indu.  

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  Thanks, Elaine.  Look, I think, you know, we should all be aware that government policy has failed First Peoples for a very long time and that kind of reparation is occurring and in some ways the constitutional change is part of that repair.    

I think the whole  whether it's a referendum or anything that's been happening in policy in civic spaces, in community, in social services, it's recognising that the best people to figure out how to not just fix the problem but to paint a picture of what flourishing looks like and take their community and all of us in that direction are the First Peoples of this country.  So a lot of work is being done on returning power and control to the people who are in the best place to really address the issues that face them, and also, I think for all of us to have some faith and trust that if they have managed this place for 60,000 years well, we'll be alright under that control and that way of rolling out what should matter in this world.    

So I think, you know, one is of course selfdetermination is core, you know, just giving  not even  it shouldn't be asked to give, it's really about that community having the wherewithal to take control of what matters to them and that's really important.  I'll often say to people, you know, the Constitution is a living document and, you know, if it was written today and not at federation, what would it look like, and it could not look like it does now, it has to name that Australia is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.  And in some ways that change is simply repair, it's a repair and recognising that the world today has a much  has kind of evolved and is more conscious of these things than 200 years ago and it's okay to just say yep, we need to fix that foundation document because if it was written today, it would look very different.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Mmm.  You're right, Indu.  It's not enough to  what you're saying just makes me think of putting a bandaid over a broken leg, right?  We can't do that.  It's not going to fix the problem.  We actually have to really determine what the issue is in order to heal and move forward.  So the Constitution would be really worded differently today and it's okay to address that and it's okay to say, "Okay, these are the problems" because mentioning the problems isn't the problem itself, it's pretending they don't exist.    

I'm going to go now to Sukhmani.  What different things do we need?    

ASSOC. PROF. SUKHMANI KHORANA:  That's a really wideranging question.  I think Indu has done really well to talk about the constitutional aspect and the fact that Australia doesn't have a treaty.  It is amongst the only, you know, nations which was colonised and is still a settler colony and doesn't have a treaty with First Nations people, so we have to remember that the Voice is only just a starting point to try to address that.    

But I also  with the two hats I have on, you know, my expertise is in media and cultural studies and I'm very interested in public discourse and sometimes public discourse is dismissed, but I think public discourse is ultimately what shapes public policy.  So if we don't change the representations of Indigenous people, whether it's in your 6pm bulletin, whether it's in film, whether it's in the arts, if we don't again, you know, prioritise that selfrepresentation as a culture, then we are not going to see a significant shift in perceptions of First Nations people.    

I think it's beginning to shift.  We've seen  even if you just look at the numbers and from Screen Australia we have greater representation of First Nations people across different mediums.  If you look at social media, there's, you know, little collectives like IndigenousX that are doing really great work, there's also individuals who are really active in the space in terms of amplifying injustice, but also talking about what the solutions might be.  So it is beginning to shift, but it's the mainstream media that is often lagging behind in terms of catching up.    

And the other sort of hat I have on is obviously as a scholar, as an educator, and I think universities are also beginning again a very belated catching up in terms of what's happening in our classrooms.  They're trying to use the word "decolonisation".  Sometimes it's a buzz word, sometimes with proper consultation, so it's a very varied, fragmented landscape, and I think more could be done in terms of what does it mean, is there Indigenous reference groups when particular courses or whole programs are trying to decolonise.  And the recent review by Minister Andrew Giles is also beginning to address, you know, how dismally we are doing for Indigenous students.    

So, again, we're taking small steps in that direction, but I think we also have to ask the question, which I guess Linda Burney's statement there to the National Press Club raises, even after identifying all of these problems and potential solutions and prioritising selfrepresentation, what are the barriers?  Why is it that we're not making significant progress?  Why do we keep coming back?  So it's cyclical the interest in these questions.  It's not the first time that we're talking about treaty or voice or public discourse that is still, you know, negatively portraying Indigenous Australians, so why is there not more substantive progress, and I think that's the question I would like to lead with.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thanks so much, Sukhmani, and that's a really poignant question as well because that is the barrier, right?  This isn't the first time that we're talking about this.  This isn't the first time that First Nations people have advocated for reconciliation, so what is happening?  I think we can really look at the history of this country and how colonisation continues in all the aspects that you talked about  the classroom, the media, the way that we come together, the way that we see each other, who we celebrate, what we celebrate, and so on.  It's ongoing and it permeates how we live and what we see in this country.  So in terms of taking that decolonising aspect or the buzz word aspect out of decolonisation, it's that really genuine, ongoing commitment to that multisectoral decolonisation so that representation is more diverse, more equitable, more authentic and ethical to what this country is and what it needs.    

I'm going to go now to Nour.  What different things do you think we need?    

NOUR AL HAMMOURI:  Yes, so I want to bring this to a more smaller scale, a more local scale.  So in my experience in studying, I discovered this thing called the  it's NACCHO, so it sort of lists all the Aboriginalled and run health organisations, and that to me was one of the first instances where I was like okay, this is a really good thing that's happening that can  that if brought out to a more large scale can actually bring more impact, and how I took it is it was focusing on leading their voices and also consulting and ensuring that it is  what they want is what gets put in.    

So the NDIS they tried to get into the rural environments and tried to support Indigenous people with disabilities out in the rural communities, but the problem that they found was that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders don't have a word for disability, they don't see disability how the west sees it, so obviously they're not going to be able to impact the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community effectively.    

So what's happening now is that they're sort of bringing in their western lens and trying to apply everything and say one size fits all, but we've realised time and time again that it's not.  Everything needs to be looked at in the lens of these people and they are the ones who have to sort of tell us what works for us, which is what's been happening, but it can only  it only happened through a Royal Commission.  It doesn't need to go to a Royal Commission for us to realise that some things aren't working.  We have to be more cognisant of the fact that what works for westerns doesn't work for everyone else because the world is a lot more than just the west.    

If we  you know, the question was if the same isn't working, what's next?  What needs to happen is you need to be properly consulting and listening because it's like, you know, you can  what's the saying, like you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't teach the horse to drink?  It's more or less that sort of framing.  Like you can't sort of expect them to come to you when what you're offering won't work to them, for them, and that's what sort of the Voice and the treaty and all is asking for, it's asking for proper implementation of what we deserve as people and what we need to properly represent us and that's like  that's essentially the crux of it.  Like it's reached a stage where this no longer becomes a place where we can feel like we have any impact and if that's the case, like what happens after that?    

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Mmm.  Yes, the frames of reference definitely need changing, right?  And Iva, you were talking about this in terms of trying to scope out methodologies for your own research, that you didn't find it in Australia, you had to go elsewhere, and that question of why aren't there people like me in this space with these methodologies?  Why am I  my community, why are they not represented?  Iva, what different things do we need then?    

DR IVA PONTON:  I think it's great and I agree with what has been said so far.  I think it's actually coming down to the practicalities of just fund and open the positions that need to be opened and put those people in those positions of leadership and decision making so that  and it needs to be reflective of the community they're serving.    

So, you know, one of the things that I have found in my research is students actually relate to and other people relate to people who look like them who are adding value, who are providing those services.  So it could be a trust factor, it could not be, but when they see people who have come through the same processes successfully, they're more likely to listen to and  you become role models to people who haven't actively been in those spaces as the norm.    

So for me coming in, I have to say that it has been quite challenging coming into tertiary spaces because the positions have not been open to people who study Busfika or who are doing research for Busfika.  If anything, the research has been done by nonBusfika people and I'm advocating for  Australian Pacific Busfika Education Network, we advocate for people doing the work for Busfika by Busfika because we do have the capacity to do so, and it's one of the challenging questions, you know, the powers that be, do you really want to hear what we have to say or is this going to be another tokenistic gesture of being the flavour of the month or the year or the fiveyear or tenyear plan, it might be difficult to hear, but, you know, putting the people in those positions who are going to work for the communities at large who are requiring the service and support.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  That's super important.  To have that lived experience and those community connections is super important.  What you were saying just reminded me of imagine if we had a Minister for Women that was a man.  Yes, we've had that, but it just seems ridiculous.  There's a disconnect, there's a gap between the person doing the job and what the job actually needs.    

Now, I'm going to go to Indu and I know you and Sukhmani are part of a group called South Asians for the Voice for Parliament 2023 and you do have a presentation for us on the practical steps we can all take, so thank you so much for that resource, and we'll be posting it up on the chat, so on the link, so please feel free to click on it too.  But I'd also like to ask you, Indu, what is the purpose of your group and why is it necessary?    

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  So, you know, a couple of months ago there were phone calls being made across various people in our South Asian community, so not just Indian, I'm of Indian origin, about what's being done by us for us, in Iva's words, and, you know, it kind of very organically formed as a group of people who were interested who had, I suppose, a history of engaging with our own communities and to start to think about what would make sense to engage our communities further.  So, you know, the kinds of questions we were asking is what is going on, do we know what that is, do we know what people are thinking, do we know why they're thinking what they're thinking.    

And so we just came together, it was a very organic group of people, we called a few people we knew from different communities, so there's Sri Lankan, Afghani, FijianIndian and Indian people in this group, but we really wanted it to be Pan South Asian because we also recognise that when you leave your homelands and you come to a place like Australia, there are certain regional cultural affinities that take shape that might not take shape back in the homelands as clearly.    

So we started this really to start thinking about whether there was any value we could add and we did a survey to try and understand the problem and then using that survey, we're building a campaign really just to reach our own people in the ways that make sense to them most to engage them with the issue and to really hopefully help them make an informed decision as migrants on Aboriginal land.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thank you so much.  

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  I'll share more about it.  It's in the presentation and the presentation also really runs through kind of practically what South Asian people, communities, organisations, alliances, are doing to build relationships with First Peoples and to advocate for and be allies for the work really.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  It's a great resource, and we can also share this when we send out the recording so people can pass it on too.    

It has that element what you're saying, Indu, with what, Iva, you were saying about meet people where they're at, right?  You do have to meet people where they're at to know how to engage with people effectively.  But you did also mention the survey, Indu, and I'm going to ask Sukhmani now, can you tell us more about that survey and what have you found out?    

ASSOC. PROF. SUKHMANI KHORANA:  I'm going to put it back to Indu because Indu can talk through the slides with the data, which is also available to people who are looking at the chat, and then I can talk more about the insights and also maybe compare it to what we found through the SSI research as well.  Back to Indu.  

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  Sure.  So we sent it out hoping to have as many responses as we could.  We got about 110.  What was great about it was we got a mix of men and women, we got a mix of people from different countries, mostly predominantly Indian and then followed by Sri Lankan.    

We were trying to understand who it was that was responding to us, but also their views.  We were trying to understand how they're leaning, what their engagement was with Indigenous issues, and really you'll see in the data there's obviously some kind of selection bias and we called it out quite early.  We got a huge influx of people who were supportive.    

What was interesting is, you know, except for three people out of 110, everyone was intending to vote yes or leaning to yes and what was interesting also is more than half the people were neutral on engagement with Indigenous issues, right?  So really when we were looking at the data, we're thinking well, what is this telling us and in some ways rather than try and kind of figure out why people are not engaging or voting no or don't know, vote no, right, let's use this incredible positive groundswell that does exist in our community and share that and also the fact that there are people who are not  you know, who have neutral engagement with Indigenous issues and are still voting no, what does that mean?    

So that's what we decided we would build on, and Sukhmani can talk about the survey and the insights and the conversations we've had since, I think, that are helping us shape our campaign a little bit more, but really the survey was kind of a pleasant surprise.  Maybe there is a huge selection bias, but in some ways it challenged this notion of, you know, that people did  the multicultural community are somehow kind of ripe for the plucking for one side of the fence and we thought oh, let's counter that, let's actually share the hopeful message that actually the communities we're from are highly  some of them are highly engaged and some of them are less engaged, but are seeking to be more engaged and are open to that.  So that's really, I think  for us the survey was very much a starting point and I don't think it's  we don't see it as a full picture.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thanks, Indu.  So Sukhmani, would you like to continue?    

ASSOC. PROF. SUKHMANI KHORANA:  Yes, I think  just backing up what Indu has already said, the survey data  I think we all had some kind of hypothesis about our communities and where they lean and I'm often asked about where the Indigenous Australian community leans politically at every election and I just go the data doesn't exist.    

So I think this was a real opportunity not to understand the political leanings of the community, but to understand, you know, how they relate to Australia and you can't really relate to Australia without understanding its First Nations history, that is really important to remember and that's also something that's come out of our research which Settlement Services International has been working on with refugees for four phases now.  The fourth phase is specifically focused on refugee and Indigenous connections and we're doing workshops, yarn country workshops, led by an Indigenous researcher, Madison Shakespeare, in three different states in Australia.    

What's come out of this, and then I'll jump to the survey, is also that refugees are very interested in learning more about First Nations history and the history is often the first point of connection and not necessarily what's going on politically at the moment.  So that's important to remember and that probably comes out of shared experiences, shared struggles of displacement, of colonisation in most cases with refugee people as well.  So similar to what Nour has said about Palestinians, I think there's a natural affinity for refugee peoples and also South Asian refugee peoples and other South Asian people who have been displaced because of civil war, like the Sri Lankans, with First Nations causes.    

Having said that, I think, as Indu said, I was really surprised that even South Asian people who may not be coming from, you know, displaced communities are leaning yes or are neutrally or highly engaged with questions of First Nations sovereignty or the Voice and we suspect this is possibly because of multicultural experiences of coloniality in their own home countries.  So it's not just people who might be progressive on other social and economic issues.  So the broader picture we're getting of who's voting yes in the Voice from the opinion polling is that it's people who are educated and younger and sometimes left leaning, but that's not the picture we've had of the South Asian community so far, or obviously adding to that that this is not necessarily a representative sample, but nonetheless, it is indicative of the direction that this community is heading in.  

And I think where people are leaning no, it's not for the same reasons that people might be leaning no in the broader community, it's not because of their ideological positioning.  It's because they might be disengaged.  So that's something that the yes campaign more broadly, but also more specifically our campaign might look at.    

But largely I think we want to build on the yes, we want to build on the fact that people across backgrounds and across gender identities and class differences as well as education and age in South Asian communities are leaning towards yes and so our campaign will highlight that, it will be in language and also not just a textbased campaign because I think a lot of people in community are more used to other mediums.    

And I think  and in some ways the people  you know, the vox pops that the campaign will produce and in terms of why people are leaning yes or wanting to vote yes will also counter myths that might exist in the community, so we're not dismissing at all that those myths are not there about what the Voice stands for, so we have some community conversations that tell us what those myths are and so I think the campaign will not completely address, but through the vox pops we will hopefully address some of those myths and misinformation as well.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  It's so inspiring to hear what you've found.  There is that big element of hope there.  It does  going back to what you said, Indu, it does debunk this myth that multicultural migrant communities are ripe for the plucking for misinformation, and so on, and that you've seen that across the respondents too, so it doesn't fit a particular type as such.    

Now, I know we have talked a bit about the practical things we can do to advocate and enable reconciliation and there's a rich, ripe list there in terms of ripe for the picking.  Those are the things we should be picking, those practical things, those things we can do together and move together with.  So now we're coming up to the part where we go to your questions, audience.  So we'll just look at the Q&A and have a look at what's been asked.  And just dramatic suspense as the technology decides to pause on us, but we will bring that up soon.  But as we're doing that, would anyone like to make any further comment or to speak to what they've heard so far?  And maybe I can ask Iva.  

DR IVA PONTON:  No, I just wanted to say thank you for this opportunity.  It's great to be able to hear the different viewpoints and also hear the research behind Indu and Associate Professor Sukhmani's work and I look forward to reading about that when I access the link after this conversation.  So thank you, Elaine, and thank you, Nour.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thank you so much too, Iva.  We do have a question here and I'm just going to read this out:  "In conversation with colleagues and students, including multicultural ones, how can we answer the question why reconciliation efforts and the referendum are important to advance civil rights?  The argument I'm hearing back is that we live in a democracy, and everyone already has a voice to Parliament."  Who would like to answer that question?  

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  I'll probably make a short statement because in some ways, you know, the comment I made about remembering when the Constitution was written is still  I think holds for this question.    

I think one way to look at it is there are a number of elements that are taking shape in this referendum.  So one is reconciliation. The other one is actually repair.  So we can't keep moving forward without repairing what has been done in the past because then all we're doing is really replicating the messes that have formed from the way the past has been done on certain matters.    

So I think in some ways the referendum is reparation as much as it is reconciliation.  It is actually setting things right, recognising that the way we've done things has not worked and should probably have never been done that way and, you know, it's drawing that  one of the lines in the sand, we have many more to draw.  So yes, that's one way to think about it is it's not always just thinking forward and progress and the new world, but it's actually the repair and how important that is before we can progress.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Thank you so much, Indu.  Would anyone else like to answer that question?  

NOUR AL HAMMOURI:  Yes, I'll make one comment.  So, yeah, we might  you know, it might be said that we do live in a democracy, but having the Voice implemented isn't going to retract that, it's only going to actually make our society fairer and more equal to all people.  So my sort of claim is why should we not have these people involved in our Parliament and make it a more democratic, more accessible environment for all people in Australia?  Why are we limiting it to just the people who get elected, because, you know, elections are an interesting space and while they do uphold democracy, there's a lot of political plays that happen and, you know, the Voice is one aspect and one way that we can mitigate those effects of it as well.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Mmm, like a truly genuine democratic society.    

There is another question here and that's focusing on your survey, Sukhmani and Indu.  Is it possible to use the survey material and methodology to obtain the views of other communities"  and I suppose also with you, Iva, in terms of the methodologies  if so, who can I reach out to?"  If people are happy on the panel, we can connect you as well, so please feel free to email us.  That's mwn@uts.edu.au and that goes to the Multicultural Women's Network.  So for anyone who wants to touch base with us directly or get any further resources or any contacts, that's the email to write to.    

This is not a comment, but it's a lovely  this is not a question, sorry, but this is a lovely comment: "Congratulations to the whole team on this incredible session today, lots to reflect on and how this will apply to our actions moving forward.  Thank you to all for your powerful voice and agency."    

And I do have to echo that because thank you, everyone, for your input and for this rich discussion.  There is this expectation, I feel, that migrants shouldn't speak up, you know, that grateful migrant mentality to shut up is to show appreciation, but from what I've learnt today, it's imperative to work together, use our voices in whatever ways we can but, most importantly, to also deeply listen so we can move towards genuine reconciliation together.    

There's so much to take away from what we've covered today and I will be playing this back too for all the learnings and because I'm thankful for every opportunity to learn more and action that learning.    

Thank you to the UTS Multicultural Women's Network, which I am a part of, for the design and delivery of today's event.  If you'd like more about the network, please email us.  And thank you so much to our wonderful panellists for your insights, your care and your hope and your hard work.  Thank you so much.    

My name is Elaine Laforteza and that's the end of our discussion today.  And I give you how many minutes left of your life, wow, isn't that amazing?  So thank you, everyone, and please stay in touch.  Thank you so much.  

INDU BALACHANDRAN:  Thank you.  Thanks, Elaine.  

SPEAKER:  Great to meet you all.  

DR ELAINE LAFORTEZA:  Yes, great to meet you all and thank you, everyone, for attending.