Exploring culture and identity in the diaspora

Christine Afoa
Talofa lava, and warm Pacific greetings to you all. UTS Multicultural Women's Network and Leah and I would like to begin by acknowledging the song lines lands, skies and waterways we are on today. I'm calling in from Wangal Land. And this platform is where we will recognise and honour the traditional custodians of this country and pay respect to all Elders. From The past, present and tomorrow. This land was never ceded. And Leah and I are both women of the Pacific Ocean. And so, in this podcast, it is important that we honour our ancestors and the waves that brought them here. We also have every chance that we get one to acknowledge those who currently live on lands being stolen from under their feet, and those who are being oppressed today. Hello, Leah. Hey,

Leah Subijano  
Christine, that was beautiful. I love that acknowledgement. I'm gonna copy it, for another event that we do. I'd also like to pay my respects to Elders past present. And I'm coming in from Gadigal land. So, this is where I'm tuning in for our recording today. So as Christine mentioned, I'm Leah and welcome to this conversation about us just having a chat and exploring our Pacific Island and Asian identities. 

We’re both from the diaspora growing up in Sydney, and then there's a whole lot to unpack. But just to be clear, we're not authorities on the topic, which also begs the question - what makes you an authority on culture?. But we're just two millennial, brown, island gals, first gen, work aunties, who were born and raised in Australia, living in the diaspora, and we're both going through this journey of exploring culture. 

And I'm excited because this conversation is just like, an insight into Christine and I staying back late in the office and having a good old chat. And I think it's a gift for people to get some insight into that. 

So, to start off, I want to introduce Christine so the beautiful Christine afore is the eldest of four girls, born in Bankston, with family from Lalomalava and Lotofagā in Samoa. She's written for Cordite Poetry Review, Red Room poetry and Sweatshop Women under the mentorship of Australia's first ever Pasifika novelist, Winnie Dunn. Her poetry was featured in ‘One Ocean, Many Waves’ at Shopfront Arts Lab Gallery, and Christine works as a UTS Student Equity Project Officer for the U@Uni Academy and as the Secretary for the Australian Pacifica Educators Network. Hello, Christine. 

Christine Afoa  
Hello. And I'll introduce you Leah is the Senior Events and Engagement Officer at the UTS Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion, and Marketing and Communications Lead with the Multicultural Women's Network. She is also a freelance artist, Tahitian and Hawaiian Hula dancer with Nāpua Australia and performs as percussionist with the amazing all women's Afro-Brazilian inspired rhythm collective Ile Ilu. Her mission is to fuse together her skills and passions and help her create a better world where historically marginalised communities, especially women of colour, can authentically be themselves take up space and be free of depression. What an intro. 

Leah Subijano
Yeah, I wrote that at like 10pm last night. I was like, Is this all right?

Christine Afoa  
I love it. I think it's super important to say that you're also a beautiful Filipino woman.

Leah Subijano  
And I would also like to say a beautiful Samoan woman. And I guess it's not really often you see that in people's bios and introductions. So yeah, but anyway, to kick off this chat. I want to ask by posing to you. What was the inspo behind this beautiful idea of us talking about culture?

Christine Afoa  
Oh gosh. Yes. So, if you don't already know, America has the whole month of May dedicated to celebrating a AAPI or Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage. It's a mouthful. And we are slowly seeing a shift in the world from AAPI to AP ID, just Asian Pacific Islanders Desi, or AA NHPI, which is Asian American, Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander month. And we don't want to detract from the importance of all these different groups. But we recognise that bunching so many diverse groups together means something's got to give. And often, it's the nuances of those cultures. It's like, what makes them so special becomes muted, so that it is palatable for everyone else in the world. And we really, really noticed, especially when we're talking late night in the office, that there's nothing like that in Australia. We're not going to start that with this simple podcast, but we wanted to have that chat about, what is it about our identities that that is so special, and deserves a month of celebration, but even beyond that, we live these lives every single day? It’s just not enough. Anyway. So, let's start this conversation. And we'll see what comes from it.

Leah Subijano  
Yeah, I find it so interesting, because that's a lot of acronyms AAPI, APID. I do follow a lot of Pacific Island and Filipino content based in the US. So, I see a lot of the AAPI stuff and all the Heritage Month, stuff come up. And it is very interesting that we don't have that in Australia, considering how, how closely tied to Australia as this, you know, a colonial nation state is so like, economically, culturally, geographically close to the Asia Pacific region. Yeah. So, I do find it interesting, but also not surprising that there's.. Yeah, none of that sort of, like, national acknowledgement. 

Christine Afoa  
Yeah, I think it's tied to Australia's really complex and difficult relationship, especially historically, with our communities. How the White Australia Policy was there, and everything that comes with black birding, and it's just not… we're not at that place yet.

Leah Subijano  
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think we forget how the White Australia Policy really, really impacted, I guess, the connection of our peoples with this place. And so, with the implementation of the White Australia Policy, which was the Immigration Restriction Act of 1901. Thank you, year 10 history. But they essentially allowed the Chinese migrants who were here from the goldrush era to stay, but then set up this really horrible test to exclude anyone else from entering the country. And so, it really was only from like the 70s that Asians anyway, I'm not sure about their history with the Pacific Islands. But it was in the 70s when they decided or not that they decided, economically, they needed a workforce to work in these industries like IT and computer software, and then they will look alright, we'll let the Asians in. And then that's how, that's how my parents migrated to this country. And that's how, I guess the first big wave of migration came. That's also not so not including the first wave of migration from the Vietnam War. So I'm not also acknowledging that, but yeah, I guess that's something to point out.

Christine Afoa  
Yeah, just such a huge context here. So, to hone in, let's talk about ourselves. And what does it mean to you to be Filipina and more broadly Asian? 

Leah Subijano  
Hmm, okay. Very loaded question. Um, and also like. What is a Filipina? What is an Asian? Like, not to sound? What's the word? I don't know what the word is, but not to like, make things difficult to answer but like, How can you even define these terms? So, what I think a Filipina is could be completely different or opposing to what another person thinks that means, but it doesn't mean meaning that they're wrong, like they both could coexist at the same time. 

But anyway, I will try and answer your question. So, I kind of would want to start sort of like, in my experience on how I thought about culture growing up, being like a little brown Filipino girl growing up in Western Sydney. But to me thinking about Filipino culture, I really thought about it really ties me to family. Family, big get togethers, food, big parties. You know, where kids are playing the Auntie's are gossiping, the dads are in the backyard. Yeah, it's like really family-oriented activities. And I think it was, well, a lot of activities relating to, to the Catholic Church, or that Catholic religion, which is what my family is. And I think it also meant having really nice skin colour. They all be jealous. And I'm like, ‘Yeah, the ancestors blessed me’. This, yeah, this melanin hashtag. 

But, um, I guess, in the broader context of being Asian, with Filipinos being grouped in the Asian category, which is also, maybe we'll talk about this later, there's some contention overseas, especially in the US about whether Filipinos are Pacific Islander, or Asian. And I'm like, who created these terms anyway. But I did go to a predominantly white primary school, and then I went to a predominantly Asian high school. So, it wasn't just Filipinos, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Sri Lankan, a big, diverse group of peers. And I think it I remember starting school in year seven, and just feeling like this sense of, like, relief, and belonging. And then I think I look back and you know, being the one of hardly any brown or Asian kids in primary school, like, unconsciously kind of create these things of like, wanting to be white need to fit in, you know, wishing your last name wasn't so difficult to pronounce. But I think, you know, I'm very grateful that I went to a diverse high school where, like, I just like, released all of that. Not saying internalised racism just immediately went away. But I did feel, I guess, a sense of just relief and belonging in that in that context. 

But yeah, I want to flip it over to you. So, what does it mean to you to be Samoan or Pacific Islander?

Christine Afoa  
I love how you answered that by going back. Because it's something that the, I mean, we're working in the education space. And we see that in the children that we work with as well. That's beautiful. I'll also start with going back, I was born in Bankstown. So Western Sydney kid too, but on the other side.

Leah Subijano  
Blacktown Bankstown represent.

Christine Afoa  
And I always define it as well through family, just like you, and it just it's so innate. Right. So, I'm the eldest of four girls. And I've always introduced myself as like the oldest, whenever I'm with family. And then I realised that I'm doing that now in my professional life as well. And, yeah, it's always the lands that we're connected to. It's the people that we're connected to, as well. But to be a Samoan girl. It's like the inequalities and the values that I've had growing up, is just becoming stronger. And the biggest one I can think of is alofa, which is love. And in a western context, the word love for would be used for love would be used in just that romantic sense. But love to me in the perspective of a Samoan woman is being kind and being open hearted with everyone that's around you. And that is also linked to another value that we have, which is fa’aaloalo, respect for everyone, but also the concept of the va, which is the space that is around yourself, but it's also the distance that you keep between you and others. And it's like I'm relearning as an older Samoan person, what that means, as a kid, you just like have these ideas that you're just like, oh, yeah, that's normal. So yeah, I really liked that. We talked about being children and being little brown kids.

Leah Subijano  
I found it so interesting just now how you spoke about all your, like your family and like, the connection to land. And in your bio, that you, you know, that you sent over, you spoke about being, you know, the eldest of what did you say, like eldest of four girls and being from Bankstown. And like, I've never, like I managed events for a living. And always I'm collecting bios, but that's not usual for people to open, you know, with how many siblings they have, and where they are in that sort of, like positioning or whether where they're born. And I think that's really beautiful thing to like, bring in that we don't really see often in sort of like this western context. 

Christine Afoa  
Yeah, because often your professional life is so separate from who you are every single day. And that is so strange to me. But of course, I wasn't like always like this, I learnt to bring in my culture in my nine to five life.

Leah Subijano  
And yeah, I think that's amazing. And I'm like, I'm aspiring to that, or I'm, like, I'm getting there. You know, this is just one example of how we're kind of bringing in culture into the work the workplace and having it be celebrated and valued. I hope you can let us know, after you listen. Celebrated and valued?

Christine Afoa  
Well, like you said, In the beginning, we're not authorities. And I feel like we're not authorities on anything, because we're still navigating our way, right?

Leah Subijano  
is kind of funny, because we work in a university, which is quite a hierarchical place where, you know, research and citations and like, there's a very strict hierarchy. And in the academic space, I'm not an academic, by the way, so if you are an academic for free to, like, completely school me on what I'm about to say, but there is this real hierarchy on who is an authority. And like, you know, your opinions or research aren't valid, unless it goes through this real Western education process, peer reviewed articles, etc, etc. And like, this whole university institution is a colonial one, you know, and I know, there's a lot of work being done to try and decolonize that, but it's, yeah, it's, you know, I guess we can be some change makers from within, I guess. 

Christine Afoa  
Oh, yeah, true. Especially all the all the brown academics that are coming up. It's like, yeah, we're making our mark in this space that wasn't built for us. To make some change. Like, that's the end. 

Leah Subijano  
Yes, we are. So to kind of go on to something that's maybe not as like, cheerful and exciting, about, you know, breaking barriers, etc, etc. But what are some of the, like, personal experiences that you've had, you know, maybe other people or, you know, other people judging you or having preconceived ideas of you based on your ethnicity, or your race or your looks?

Christine Afoa  
Yeah, this was hard, because you don't always want to carry this around with you at all these negative experiences, but they happen. And I think it's important for a conversation like this, especially because my friends so when you're sharing this, it's good to be in a safe space. 

I remember a time when I was in my first year of university, at the University of Sydney, and I picked up ancient history as an elective, and we had an exam that was based on Greek mythology. And on the front page of the exam was a picture of Medusa and it was where her head was chopped off so her snakes are like we call it Mahana, where it's like all wild everywhere. And I received the exam back and I got an HD. But on the front page, with Medusas image, on in red pen was a Moko drawn so the face tattoo of the Maori people drawn on Medusa’s image, and the lyrics misspelt of the haka. That was popularised by the All Blacks but is really deeply meaningful to the Maori people. And then in the section where the professor has to leave feedback, she had written ‘I saw this picture and I thought of you haha’ and I I just remember saving that and I had no feedback on the actual mark or the actual exam other than HD. And when I showed my friends, I was because I was seething. My friends were laughing. And of course, I didn't have any Pasifika friends in my first year of university, which was really horrible. But I just remember thinking this is a professor at this really highly esteemed University. And she thought that that was appropriate, but also funny. And it wasn't even my culture. I'm Samoan, that's Maori culture thing. And it had nothing to do with the exam. And then oh, it's just yeah, I was just really surprised not just by the actual thing that happened, but the reaction of my friends. 

And just as a, as a writer, I write through my work, but also on the side as well, I would get feedback that reminds me of that, because it'll be nothing to do with the actual input of my pieces, or the messages I'm trying to convey. But it will always be attacks on me as a Samoan person. So, people will be telling me that I should go back to where I come from, even though I was born in Bankstown. Or they were telling me I'm not Aussie enough. Or I even had an example where a man was asking people to find my address, so he could educate me on being Australian. And it's, it's things that come up all the time. But you can't, you can't carry that around as much as you carry around the empowerment from your people. But that's a whole other thing. And that was my experience.

Leah Subijano  
Wow, I think that just shows how far we have to go as a nation, you know, from like, the micro to the macro. Micro aggressions, macro aggressions that you experience, the power dynamics, you know, when people who are in positions of power, you know, make racist comments and make very inappropriate comments, you know, like, yeah, a long way to go.

Christine Afoa  
Yep. How about you? What have you experienced? or what have you gone through, as? 

Leah Subijano  
Well, I totally agree with you, in the sense of like, we can't carry that heaviness around. But I think we also need to bring these experiences up, so that we can heal them. Because, like, our bodies and our minds, like we carry, like, we carry everything that we've been through in life, and then, you know, ignoring them just doesn't, is not the solution, because they will sit with you. And they'll manifest in other harmful dangerous ways or unhealthy ways at least. So, you know, whilst I know, it's really, really important to know, stand in your power, and like, you know, look at things from a very strengths based approach, I think, you know, on a personal level, there's like a huge amount of healing that needs to be done in terms of like, sort of acknowledging, like things that have happened, or acknowledging how even you've have some internalised racism or things like that. And yeah, it's an ongoing process. 

But to answer your question, I think, um, well, I think when people judge me based on feeling being Filipino, and, you know, in a more like, positive way, they're like, also, you're Filipino, are you sick dancer? And I'm like, Yeah, I am. But then they're like, ‘oh, so can you sing?’and I'm like ‘Nah fam, that gene skipped me. And I mean, there's obviously stereotypes of Filipinos being nurses, overseas foreign workers, carers, service workers. 

But I think when it comes to sort of my personal experience of both racism and sexism, it would have been overseas and I'm not saying it doesn't happen here. But I think growing up in my own bubble in Western Sydney, generally being surrounded by people of colour, I was a bit shielded from like the really harsh, intense racism that I know persists and exists in Australia. But when I moved overseas as a 21-year-old to Europe to Spain, which is also the coloniser of my ancestors’ land. That's when I just saw how like, epically racist people are. And so I think there was a lot of like, catcalling a lot of racialized cat calls, screaming down the street like, gross, gross, gross people. A lot of like, jokes about being like a sex worker and like, you know, I think my favourite, that's not my favourite. I think one of the first instances or experiences I had when I moved to Spain was going out. And then like this, this guy just coming up to me and being like, what throw euros and I was like, still, like, figuring out Spanish. And then I was like, did he just say five euros? What a horrible person. 

And then I guess another sort of experience I had would be when I went to the Philippines as a late teen slash early 20s gal, and then going to Boracay, which is like the party island of the, of the country. And like, you witness that real dynamic of like, old men from many different countries. But to me, what sticks out is like the old like men, and then the very young looking Filipino women and that sort of real, that sex industry, really. And so, I think because I look like these women, being who I am and in my skin, like, yeah, just the looks, the way people would approach me. People taking photos of me without consent. Yeah, it was really, it was really jarring and eye opening. And, you know, I think my chip on my shoulder was developed from those experiences.

Christine Afoa  
Oh, sorry, Leah.

Leah Subijano  
You know what, like, it's so common. Just ask, you know, I think the fetishization of like, Asian women, like we all experience it. So like, we all know what it feels like. And unfortunately, it's a common thing across, you know, not just Filipinos across Asian women, from all nationalities.

Christine Afoa  
It's so hard, because, like, we're saying, you can carry that. And it doesn't take away from all the positive experiences that you have with your own community. But yeah, oh, my God, that's so hard. I was like, when I was answering this, and just listening to you, too, I was thinking about how many times we see people from our own community. And then it's so normal to stop and chat with them, and to share the good stories, because we know that we will stop and listen, you know, and I was like that. Because I do this all the time. And I'm pretty sure you've seen it, I will stop, and I'll be like, “Hey, my name is Christine Afoa. Are you from you from the islands as well? And then it's like, it is so easy for me to carry millions of stories like that. The good ones.

Leah Subijano  
And just like, and we need them, and we need to talk about our good stories, and we need to be the ones telling them. Yeah, you know, we can't like we need to stay away from what do they call it? trauma porn, or something, you know, like having the POC up on a panel to, or an event or a movie or a film or whatever. And like being like ‘Oh, look at how hard their life is’ where it's like, yeah, you know, we can kind of like take ownership of our stories and sort of express them the way we want to.

Christine Afoa  
Yes. Yeah. on that. So how has your understanding of culture evolved? Big question.  

Leah Subijano  
Another big, loaded question. So, I think I'll have to do a bit of a bit of storytelling here, but I feel like especially within the last five years of years or so, like my, like understanding of culture has evolved a lot. And I feel like you know, if we look at a map and the Philippines is here, and Australia is here, I've kind of done like a bit of a you know, scenic route through the Pacific Islands, only to get back here. 

So, where that started is that maybe about seven years ago, I started doing Tahitian dance. I've been dancing my whole life, doing a whole bunch of other styles, and then a friend introduced me to Tahitian dance and I was like, this is hectic. And I was drawn by like the movement and like how strong the dance is and how beautiful it was. But then I think what, what like, kept me was learning about the culture, and learning about the language and understanding what we were dancing and singing about. And I also started doing Hawaiian hula dancing, and the learning about the culture language and the songs, there was so much about, like connection to land. It was very spiritual, a lot of really beautiful songs and dances about nature, and a lot of tributes to like the ancestors. 

And I was like, ‘This is so nice’. I'm like, but I can't claim it. This isn't my this is not my people. And I like the ages I just had FOMO. And I'm like, oh, ‘This is so cool. Like, I wish I had ancestors.’ And then it kind of hit me. And I was like, Well, you do? Also, yeah, I was just like, we do. And I think I sort of started to dig a little deeper and deeper. And I think a lot of my understanding of Filipino culture really comes from the colonial, Spanish, Catholic, sort of framework, I guess. Which is like, it's, you know, it is what it is. I'm not shaming anyone for valuing Catholic values, or, like, you know, doing all of the Catholic rituals and celebrating all of the those like special days and things like that. But I think growing up, I never realised that there was something, before for all of that was like, brought to the islands. And then, you know, when in learning Tahitian and hula dance, I have to learn the culture and learn about concepts and things like that. And then I just started making connections. I was just like, oh, the number five is the same as the number five and Tagalog. I don't know if that's true. But I do remember lima. It was the same in someone. There we go. And I was like, oh, and then mata? Yeah. So like all of these, like connections setting coming together. And I was like, well, we all kind of come from the same at like, Austronesian sort of lineage. And then I think it just really dawned on me that like, you know, the Philippines was colonised in the 1500s. And so, there was a huge, huge, huge effort to like, erase that suppress that. And like, it's, it's starting to come back, I guess, in the mainstream. I'm, like, you know, understanding that I'm in the diaspora where we may not necessarily have a lot of contact with, I don't have a lot of contact with, you know, people in the Philippines. But yeah, I think it's like, slowly evolving, and it's going to be something that I sort of figure out throughout my whole life. Oh, yeah.

Christine Afoa  
And you're being super humble right now because you're an amazing dancer. Even like, go that, that step further, and be informed about what you're doing and how you're moving is just so beautiful. 

Leah Subijano  
I think you have to, you know, we live in a very colonial world where it's like, to take and to appropriate and to take credit for is kind of the norm. Yeah, you know, and, like, I feel like I'm very cautious in you know, making sure that I'm being respectful, and you know, I'm honouring the people that taught me so thank you to everyone who's taught me and like, not taking advantage of something that's not really mine. Yeah, but so what about you? How has your understanding of culture evolved?

Christine Afoa  
Yeah, like how you acknowledge who has taught you because I think that was really fundamental in me, learning about my culture, but also, being diasporic is like there's a different element to it, and not having that immediate connection to the land. You're kind of feeling like an imposter. At least that was my experience, where you're just like, Am I Samoan enough? Do I do enough for my people? Can I be as Samoan as or I feel. Yeah, and my understanding of my culture was built in the church to when I was a child, you know, it's it was, we used to call Monday to Friday school, government school. And Sunday school was the school you focused on. All the time, you had to focus on that. And I had to be first in those classes. And I loved I loved that I was brought up that way. How I practice my religion is different these days, but it's still, it's still, like an important building block to who I am. I think the people that I learn off are people that I met at a later stage. So as an adult, it's the authors that I read, it's the artists that I'm surrounded by. And every single one of them has brought a different side of being Samoan to it to. So, I love that. And it was early in university that I read an author called Albert Wendt. And he was so fundamental in shifting my like, internalised racism. Yes, but also my hesitancy to express how Australian Samoan I am. Yeah, so that that was pretty big for me.

Leah Subijano  
Yeah, I think, um, I think it's a struggle for us in the diaspora, like, honestly, you know, I get it from people who are very, very close to me. And I know, they don't mean to be harmful, but like, this whole idea of like, you're not Filipino, you're Australian. And I'm like, well look at my face. You know, and it's not even that it's like, you know, blood quantum is a colonial construct. It's just like, if you come from a lineage you are that, like, it's more than this, like idea of like, percentages, or like, where you live or where you were born. I think we need to completely shift how we perceive like, culture and identity. And I still have some hesitation of, you know, being like, 100% confident that I am Filipino, because I can't speak the language very well. You know, I like for example, I mean, I haven't been to the Philippines since I was 21, which was a while ago, a long while ago. And I stuck out like a sore thumb. Like, if anything in that experience, I felt more like distanced or different and not really a part of that place. But I do feel like if I go back again, as a more grown woman, I'll go back with a completely different mindset.

Christine Afoa  
Yeah. I'm gonna jump in here and ask you then, about the labels that you have to describe yourself, and how you think about these labels.

Leah Subijano  
Labels, I think, when it comes to labels, we need to ask who created the label and what to be used for? You know, like, being Filipino, like, if it comes from me, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm Filipino. That has a very different sort of context behind someone, a coloniser being like those Filipinos, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, I don't know how I feel about labels. I'll have to come back to you. But I think yeah, I think it's just important to ask Who created them? And what's the purpose of the label? And who has agency like, Does this person or community have agency over these labels? Yeah. And so, what's your what's your take? 

Christine Afoa  
I know it's the exact same as a Pacific Islander. I mean, the biggest thing that happens when we bring up labels in the Pacific Islander community is the ones that already exist, and they exist because the colonisers brought them over European settlers, settlers would come in and that literally divided the Pacific Ocean. And we had the three main labels so Polynesian, Micronesian and Melanesian. 

And then going back to childhood. Polynesian was the only label that I really heard. And that was because the school system gave us that and the biggest example was every single Pacific Islander whether they were from Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia were lumped together and had to learn Samoan, so that we had a Samoan language class. And I remember the school patting themselves on the back, because what a great move to have someone language classes, but only the Samoan kids would be excelling in those Samoan language classes. And of course, you've got all the other Pacific Island nations just like they, the children would just be failing. And it'll just be another reason why it's not working. 

But to even look deeper into those labels, the literal translations of those labels are really just really negative because you have Polynesia, which means many islands. You had Melanesia, which meant black islands. And Micronesia, which meant tiny islands. And the thing about it today is while I'm shifting away from the Polynesian label, I acknowledge my Polynesian and Melanesian families are reclaiming it. So they're finding that these nuances, although put on them by outsiders, is something that they need to be amplifying now, and I completely support that. And I love that about the differences in our communities. 

But the big label of being Pacific Islander, I reckon, especially when someone else is putting it on you, they will just latch on to whatever the most well known example of that label is, right. And if you think of Pacific Islanders straightaway, you think of really high profile sports people or people in the tough arenas, like wrestling, or boxing. You've got the rock, who's my name Siuli, but no one really knows that anyway, but and it's always our men who are the face of it. And they're brilliant people, and they're doing brilliant things in the world of sport, but we're way more nuanced than that. And we've got the women too, who are in these fields that don't have that level, you know, they don't have that weight to their own label. And I like I, I reckon it's changing. I reckon it's shifting. And we're seeing women, thriving Pasifika women thriving in academia in I mean, like, we know, so many great people in our workspace that are like that. And like STEM in the arts. And yeah, there's, there's, it's time now.

Leah Subijano  
Yeah. And it's one of those things where you don't want that label, especially if it's imposed by you from like, the outside just become stereotypes. Yeah, I feel you on that girl. I think when you were speaking about sort of, like these arbitrary borders and labels that were imposed by settlers. It kind of reminds me of the Philippines. So, some fun facts, like the Philippines. One - Philippines, was named after King Phillip the second of Spain. And so, you know, the settlers decided to come in, and be like, you know, and they arbitrary drew the borders as well, like, before, that we were just hundreds and hundreds of different cultures with different rituals and languages. And you know, like, what's the difference between the Philippines and Indonesia, like, we're so close, but like these arbitrary borders, were created. And then they called Las Islas Filipinas, which is like the Philippines. And then the second Fun fact, Filipinos, originally weren't even like the native people. So, the Philippines had a real caste system. And it basically went from Spanish born Spanish blood at the top, Indigenous at the bottom. And so, a Filipino, in its original context was sort of like a little bit here. And they were full Spanish blood people born in the Philippines. And then people like me, who comes from the Austronesian sort of lineage, we were like, towards the bottom and then this is like, was used as a derogatory term, but they referrd to us as like, the Indios. So using the word Filipino, when you look at its historical context, it wasn't for us, but you know, it is an actual act of reclamation and ownership of that, that term, which now spans across, you know, all of the, the islands so yeah, and I only learnt that recently, thank you, Instagram. Thank you content creators.

Christine Afoa  
And now we're learning to I mean, I'm pretty sure other people knew this already, but I'm like, Thank you, Leah. Oh, travelling the world and travelling history, just with this conversation.

Leah Subijano  
Well, you know, it's just sort of it just shows me that the Pacific Islands has a lot to offer, you know. So, I'm not mad about having like a detour through the South Pacific to get to my Filipino identity. I'll take it.

Christine Afoa  
That's beautiful. And it's, it's how you meant to travel. It's how you were meant to navigate this journey. And no one can tell you otherwise, honestly. Yeah.

Leah Subijano  
I mean, I didn't. I didn't choose it. It just sort of happened. And I'm just kind of just going down that that path. Well, we had a pretty good convo, was there anything else you wanted to add? No,

Christine Afoa  
I feel like, even if we look at this podcast in the future, we will be somewhere else in this journey. We'll be learning so many more things about our own cultures, our own the labels that we have. And I hope that whoever's watching this feels inspired to take that journey too. And, and I hope they know that there's no wrong, wrong way to navigate this path. And there are so many ancestors before us, that had to do this too, in their own different ways. But we’re here.

Leah Subijano  
And I think something beautiful, I saw on Instagram from this amazing lady that I follow. And I'm going to just bring it up now so that I don't butcher her words. And, you know, I think that there can often be like this, this element of guilt or shame of like, Oh, why didn't they? You know, why didn't they like, follow their culture? But honestly, it wasn't, it was like, okay, she says, Our ancestors did not die for nothing, did they, our ancestors, disconnected from their culture, for survival so that we could thrive? And also, that's not her exact lines, because like, the captions just changed. But that was something that I saw the other day, and I was like, You know what, I honour that I honour them.

Christine Afoa  
Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's good. That's all we're doing in our work in this as well. 

Leah Subijano  
Oh,yeah. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. I feel like we could have gotten dived a lot deeper into many of the other many of the topics that we spoke about. Maybe we could do a round two at some point. 

Christine Afoa  
But, um, this except for even if it's just us, I'd be like, yeah, and I'll listen to it and be like, Okay.

Leah Subijano  
Thank you to this was really fun. Thanks for the idea.

Christine Afoa  
I know. It was something that we always talk about, and not just between ourselves, but there's a Multicultural Women's Network, and the wonderful women that are there too. We have our own, like, inspiring mentors too. And Elaine and Amanda, so I think it's so important that we keep going for the next generation of Auntie's, not yet mamas.

Leah Subijano  
They’re coming through. We ain't we ain't 20 years old anymore. Well, this is awesome, kind of made my made my afternoon made my day. So, there's gonna be a lot of great stories and some other great content coming from the UTS Multicultural Women's Network. And so, if you're listening and want to know more, you can just check us ou at uts.edu.au/mwn And then that's our website where you can just check out the cool stuff that's happening around the space.