Recording: Tokenist, ally or accomplice?

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our 2024 reconciliation event. Um, commemorating Reconciliation in Reconciliation Week. Welcome to all of you to talk today, and to hear others share their views on how we better work together. And as we always do here on Gadigal land, we invite Aunty Glenda to acknowledge country. Thank you, Auntie Glenda.

Thank you, Robin. And all and all my UTS family. Um, this is the start of reconciliation week, so I'd like to acknowledge I'm on the land of the Gadigal people and pay respects to elders past, present, and emerging. I also want to honour our non-Aboriginal brothers and sisters who walk with us on this journey of truth, justice and healing. I also want to say that today is National Sorry Day. So the start of reconciliation is sorry day. Um, I said once. I've got nothing to reconcile. As someone who was being part of past policies that have affected my family and still continue to affect my families. Um, but I'm proud to be part of anything that happens at UTS. So, so I was part of, a little team that, set up Sorry Day and said, we want to have a day where we can reflect on the fact that our families have been torn apart and that they're still being torn apart, sadly. So sorry means it never happens again. If you look at the research from Jumbunna, 50% of the kids in care are our kids.
We are not bad parents. We just need sometimes support from our traumas of being removed. So if we're going to say sorry, let's make sorry happen, let's make it happen. Let's see how many kids are being returned to our families and let's stop making. This is really controversial. So I'm sorry everyone. If I offend the agencies, make big buckets of money out of our pain and our kids not being home, and then they return home when they're damaged and troubled. So there's a pathway from the out-of-home care service to the juvenile justice service to the big house. And I want to put a stop to that. I want to put a stop. I want them to flip it around and say, these are the number of families that we've reconnected. These are the number of families that we have successfully put in the supports to keep the kids together. So I know that's a bit radical for an old girl, but, you know, I am at UTS and you're allowed to be radical.
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Yes. Thank you. Thank you Aunty Glendra. And we acknowledge that we are on the land of the Gadigal people, the unceded land of the Gadigal people. We acknowledge this country on your behalf. I acknowledge this country, this place, the land, the water, the sand, the dirt, the many generations of people on the earth. That sits below us, the spirit of this country that still lives, and the traditional custodians that continue their connection and their care for this place. So I acknowledge on our behalf that we are on the land of the Gadigal people. And we pay respect to their ancestors and the traditional custodians today. My name is Robin Quiggin, and I am Wiradjuri. I have the great. I'm a guest here on Gadigal country. I know that I don't, I am really comfortable with that. And I think that's a, you know, a good place for all of us to start that we are on. We are guests on this Country. My country where I am not a guest, where I am descended from. That place is about eight hours west of here.
It's, Wiradjuri country, on the western part of Wiradjuri, and the Lachlan on the Lachlan River and the borders of Ngiyampaa and going over to Barkindji country. Um, I, we have many people online and we welcome those of you that are, that are online and invite you to in the chat, say where you're from. It seems very strange to be looking out of all of you speaking to the people online, but never mind, you know, from all the the years now on zoom, you know, you're not you're all familiar with that. And also, for those of you who want to use the, the question function, you just need to, use Slido. They tell me I'm a complete novice when it comes to that, but I think probably many of you aren't. And it'll also be in the chat. And I think there'll be some somebody will be organising some way for you to do that. That's, that I'm not aware of. But please, you know, we welcome our questions as we go along. I want to just speak to, Auntie Glenda's remarks and follow on from her, her powerful remarks.
And, you know, this is a really important conversation that we're having that we will, , when we hear from Summer , Dr Summer Finlay, later today on how we engage with each other and harking back to some of the things that aunties just spoken about. We do at UTS, our our setting is for self-determination. That is our policy setting set by our, you know, by my predecessors, Larissa professor, distinguished Professor Larissa Behrendt, who's still here working with Professor Michael McDaniel, who is my , in my job previously and others, like, as aunties mentioned, you know, others here who at Jumbunna over years and many, you know, working with Indigenous leadership here, our setting is self-determination. And we do give we give meaning to that here at UTS. And that means that we get to do things in a way that we believe in as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And I want to just, you know, pause going back to auntie's comments about where we are in relation to child removal and absolutely reflecting on.
Sorry. Die, sorry. Die was so hard fought for and only said she was part of a little team that put it together. You know, this was a. For those of you that remember, it was a national movement to try and get this country to acknowledge the results of the, , the national inquiry that the first Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander social justice commissioner in the in the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, as it then was set up to ask to inquire into what had happened in relation to child removal, and it shocked the country. For those of you who remember, it will have shocked you. It shocked the nation and unfortunately, the government of the day absolutely tried to shut it down. So the fight to get these things heard and to keep these things heard is so important. And and, you know, it really takes a lot of effort for us. And for those of you who work with us, I want to really acknowledge people like Aunty Glenda and those who are who fought that fight. I want to acknowledge as well, you know, we use the term settler today.
This country was not settled. This country was fought for. There are there was a war to take this country. My people, Auntie Glenda's people, the other Aboriginal people in the room today, our ancestors fought for this country. They fought to keep their children, to not have them removed. They fought to keep their country. They fought to keep access to food. They fought not to be shoved onto missions and fed flour and bully beef and then wonder why we have such poor health. They fought to stay in their place. And this is a very sophisticated conversation that we are having today about how to work together. But we have to come from that place of truth that this country was taken by violence, and we think that it's over. And but however, there is a smouldering of that violence that emerges every so often when Mr. Gundy was shot in his bed. In my living memory, you know, when I was a younger person less than a mile from here, probably when Kumanjayi Walker was shot in his bed a couple of years ago by police, by Northern Territory police, with a culture that even shocked ICAC, a racist culture that shocked our Independent Commission Against Corruption.
When our people are still shot in our beds, when our children are still being removed, we need to start from that place of honesty in these conversations. And I think that will you know, I know Summer will speak to how we do that. And I think we need to be really honest about that. And I was thinking on the way in about honesty. This an honesty? You know, truth telling was part of the Uluru Statement. And I was thinking, you know, we shouldn't have to ask for truth telling. And I was thinking, if you even look at the person sitting next to you, or you think about your children, your partner, your parents, your family, it's baseline expectation that we tell each other the truth. We divorce over that stuff going wrong. We leave over that stuff going wrong. It is very baseline. It's a very bottom line kind of expectation. So I think when we think about how we reconcile today, how we come to peace in this nation, we have to really be clear. It's not a nice to have. It's a really fundamental piece about how we come to terms with the war in this country.
So, , uh, that'll be really, you know, that is a I want to set that context for us, for the conversation we'll have today with our speakers, and we have fabulous speakers. We have, as I said, Doctor Summer May Finlay, , from the University of Wollongong, who will give us a keynote address, Professor Lindon Coombes, our professor Chris Cunneen and Doctor Elaine Laforteza, who will join us in a discussion in a moment. But first, I'd like to introduce to you our provost and Senior Vice President, Professor Vicky Chen, to offer some opening remarks today. And I do, and I want to, you know, go back to my the beginning of my remarks, which is to say that UTS does give meaning to self-determination. And that's a wonderful place to be in this institution. Thank you Vicky. Thanks.
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Well, welcome and thank you, Robin. And thank you, Auntie Glendra, for your Acknowledgment of Country and also for your help, heartfelt, you know, introduction, both of you. I too would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. It is on their land that the campus now stands and always have and always will. I'd like to pay my respects to elders, both past, present and emerging, acknowledging them as traditional custodians of knowledge for this land. It's a real pleasure to be here today, celebrating this important week in Australia's calendar. National Reconciliation Week provides an opportunity for all Australians to renew their commitment to fighting for justice and rights of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. The theme for this year, now more than ever, is a reminder of the urgency of this fight. It calls on each of us to reflect on our role and take concrete steps toward reconciliation. Now is the time for action, for calling out racism, for truth telling, which involves acknowledging and understanding the full history of our country and ensuring Indigenous representation in all spaces, from classrooms to boardrooms.
At UTS, we are very proud of our long history of leadership in these areas Indigenous education and research. We embed Indigenous content, perspectives and knowledge, knowledge and methodology in our research, our teaching and learning. We're sector leaders in these areas. We have a deep commitment to supporting First Nation peoples sovereignty and right to self-determination. As Rahman spoke so feelingly about in all areas, we are led by the expertise of our stellar Indigenous colleagues. Our colleagues are leaders in their field, championing UTS's excellence in Indigenous research and teaching and learning and translating academic outcomes to tangible benefits for individuals and communities. Our work on public policy on a whole range of fronts is incredible. Our research through Jumbunna Institute of Indigenous Education and Research has internationally acknowledged record of research output and Indigenous advocacy, and the research team is one of the few in the country that engages in inquiry and social advocacy.
Based on conversation with the community across all of Australia and internationally. It's these conversations between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians that must occur for us to close the gap in education, health care, employment and economic participation. Today we'll hear from Doctor Summer May Finlay on how we can progress in our work to move from tokenism to allyship to advocacy. Allyship and advocacy are more than just words. They're necessary actions to create real and lasting change. And after Doctor Finlay's keynote, our esteemed panellists will unpack these themes a bit further in discussion and answer your questions. And we're delighted to have such a strong turnout, not just here in this audience, but also online as we engage on this vital conversation. So thank you very much, and thank you for coming here today. Thank you, Vicky. And I think all of us who work in the university are really alert to the importance in this kind of conversation of education and research.
So these are really important places, locations to be holding these kinds of discussions and for them to be so supported. So thank you, Vicky, for for those remarks, I'd like to now introduce to you our keynote speaker. Doctor. Summer, Summer. Summer. Finley. Come on up. Doctor Summer Finley is a Yorta Yorta woman who grew up on Awabakal country, West Lake Macquarie and is a passionate advocate for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Her passion is what has driven her to work in a number of public health fields, including social marketing, communications, research and policy. She has worked for a range of organisations in the Aboriginal community controlled Aboriginal community controlled health, not for profit university and for profit for profit sectors. She's currently senior lecturer at the University of Wollongong. Please welcome Summer. Thank you, thank you.
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Can I just say thank you to Auntie Glendra for that Welcome. And nothing is too radical when it comes to our kids. Ah, thank you for coming and thank you for the opportunity to speak here today. It is an absolute pleasure to be talking on this topic. It's something I'm really passionate about working with and for Mob is also meaning bringing people along with us and on that journey is something that, different people are at. And can I just say thanks to all the mob that are here today and online. I see a lot of familiar faces. I see a lot of support. And thank you for wearing your we support the Uluru Statement, so let's have a frank talk. But before we do, I also am a visitor on this country. As a Yorta Yorta woman. This is Gadigal Country and I am eternally grateful for those that have looked after this country and that those that continue to look after it. Robin did an introduction. I'm a bunch of things. Um, I'm an academic, but that is not what I am. First, I'm a mum. I'm an auntie.
I'm a sister, I'm a daughter. I do a whole bunch of things in that capacity. And then I work in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander academic space, and I do that for our community. While that is still useful, I will still be there. So as I said, Yorta Yorta, for those that don't know, you can see it's a little tiny country in Victoria, but I grew up on Awabakal Worimi country, beautiful Lake Macquarie. I like just to put this photo in there because it is a gorgeous place to live and grow up, and I am grateful for that, for that country and my experiences there. So. I know I can't help but actually say so. These are my two kids. I have a nine-month-old and a two and a half year old. I came to have kids later in life, and I always said I was working for my future children to make a better life for them. It is really important that we continue the work beyond The Voice last year, and that work needs to continue, and I'll talk a little bit more of that in a moment. But these kids drive me now before I in a way that was people thought I was driven before.
They drive me now. And can I say she picked that outfit herself. I love black and I love the fact that she does too. And she loves pink. But and this is my partner again, wouldn't be standing here and able to do this without him or my family. So part of the reason why I put these photos as well is for anyone that's ever worked in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, anything what you hear is all the really negative statistics about us. We are not the sum total of those negative statistics. This is who we are. You read in the media, you read the negativity. We are these people that you see now. Those statistics touch our lives across all of the family that I have. There is probably someone who represents everything that you've. You will read about, you will talk about that. You will research. But this is what we are. And again honoring oh, I've got to go back. I need to honor that. We're all different. Every single person in this photo is an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person.
We are all different. It does not matter where you come from. We're still connected through our history, our culture and unfortunately, our politics. So I. Moving from Safe to Brave was a theme that came out in 2021. And to be honest with you, I still feel really strongly about this theme. Because last year we were not brave as a country. We were absolutely not brave. Whether you supported the Uluru Statement, sorry if you supported the Uluru Statement but didn't support The Voice, you were not brave. If you didn't have a sign and you didn't have a sticker and you didn't have a t shirt and you didn't talk to your friends, you didn't talk to their family, you were not brave. This is the work that needs to happen, and this is the work we continue to do. State of reconciliation. We need people to be brave and part of that is being uncomfortable. We sit in our lives, we sit in our offices. And for non-Indigenous people, you can actually avoid being uncomfortable. As Aboriginal people, we are always uncomfortable.
We don't have the luxury of not fighting. We don't have the luxury of not advocating. Because we are who we are and our families are the reasons why we do it. So as non-Indigenous people, I always ask you to get uncomfortable. And if you're comfortable, you're not. You're not there supporting us. So when we talk about Tokenist ally. An accomplice. I was going to share a story with you about how those two articles came about. For those that don't know, I wrote two articles, one for NITV and one got published in Croakey Health Media. The NITV one, they asked me, NITV asked me to do an article about cultural appropriation, and I realized I couldn't write that article until I had written the article about how to be an ally, because that's actually what is. At the crux of it is where is it that you go from being an ally to stepping over the line? And as I put it in the article, being on the shit list because you've overstepped. That article was not necessarily well received by an ITV. They were questioning some of the comments and the seven lists in there.
One of them don't speak on behalf of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I thought that was obvious, but apparently I had to justify it. Um. Which I was quite surprising, but the article got published, which was great and I am grateful for NITV for doing that. The other article, the one that got published in Croakey Health Media, almost never saw the light of day, so ABC asked me to write that article. They wanted an article similar to the one that I had written for an ITV. They edited it, and on the day it was to be published, they refused to publish it. It was too radical. Luckily enough croaky health media. Melissa. Sweet. She published it. I've never actually outed ABC publicly about it, but I think we need to, particularly after last year's referendum, let's be honest. ABC was not brave. They were absolutely not brave. But I am really grateful for croaky health media for publishing it. And when I think about this topic, I think about all of the things that I want to see in my life, all of the things that I don't want my kids to experience.
I was sitting down, sitting next to Lindon and wondering which story I'd be telling, and I have to say, I have now got kids. You do have a different perspective. The first time I was called an Abo, I was eight. Then a private school, a lovely school, and the principal said it's just a name. Without understanding the context, I can't imagine my kids having to experience that. So I'm going to take you through some things that the second article goes through, and some of them are going to seem really basic, but everyone's still getting them wrong. Lots of people are still getting them wrong. Not everybody. Lots of people are still getting them wrong. Which is why I still have to give this presentation. Microaggressions. We talk about them a lot. A lot of people understand them. Some people don't. And that's cool. What are they? They're the little things that people do that undermine us as Aboriginal and Torres Islander people, or anyone from a different background or have a different experience.
It's basically like death by a thousand cuts. And some of us will actually deal better than others. And you never know what someone's tolerance or resilience is like. So these are the little things that people say and do and things that I've experienced. Now I hate it and this happens a lot less. I have to say, what part Aboriginal are you? I usually say my ass and my eyes. Yeah. Still get this one. You don't look Aboriginal. In the day of fake tan. I get that a lot more. You're so pretty for an Aboriginal person. And this one is said more often than I would like, particularly since I got that doctor in front of my name. Haven't you done well for yourself? I think probably every Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander person in this room, or any woman of colour in particular, has probably heard these things before. Any person of colour. Haven't you done well for yourself? The low expectations have we have of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in this country are astounding. My mum got a job at the local high school as a career and transitions officer, and when it got advertised this was like 15 years ago and it was the school I went to.
Um, the career in transition transition officer was specifically for work or for TAFE. And I said to mum, no, you go in there and tell them we can go to university to. 15 years ago, it was not expected that our kids would go to uni. So here are some of the basics. And again some of you probably do these things already. And some of you might need a little reminder. Get the terminology right. If I never want to hear the word Etsy again or the acronym. People ask me why I make such a big deal about little things like capitalizing the I on Indigenous, not using ATSI, recognizing the Country. And they're like, but it's such a small thing. Why do you make such a big deal about it? Because if you can't get the little things right, you can't be trusted to get anything right in our space. Know the difference between a welcome to country and an acknowledgement. And don't ask the black staff to do an acknowledgement of country. Do an acknowledgement. It is important and I actually I suggest to people they personalise it.
We all have a connection to Country, whether or not we're actually from the country we're standing on. This is Country that nourishes us, and it's important that we acknowledge it as well. And understand that not all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are the same. That slide I put up before, where every person is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, is just a gentle reminder. It does not matter where you come from, what you look like, you are black and sometimes we actually need reminding of that as well. When we've been undermined for so long, and particularly our fair skinned members of our community, which my kids will be part of. Um, my little blondie. But we're not all the same. We don't have the same history, and not a single Aboriginal person is the fountain of all knowledge. Yeah. And, you know, I think about that when I think about research, right. You get one Aboriginal person on an Aboriginal project, and all of a sudden that person's meant to be the fountain of all knowledge.
So that's kind of the basics that I kind of would like to see. Just generally, I wish I never had to mention the terminology one. Can I just say ever again, that would be great if I could cross that one off my list, that would be a great start. So a little more than basic. Preference Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's voices. That is really important. So don't speak on our behalf. The blackness doesn't rub off in the vicinity of us, so let us speak for ourselves. Our voices were not allowed to be spoken. We were not allowed to speak for ourselves. My grandma grew up on a mission Cummeragunja. My mum is someone who is very passionate about community. But it's my generation which can stand here and the subsequent generations. Always, always engage Aboriginal and Torres Islander people and topics, policies or programs that impact us. I know that sounds like an obvious thing, but it still doesn't happen. You know, I'm a co-chair on the MRC Ethics Committee, and the amount of ethics applications that we get in that are specifically focusing Aboriginal on Aboriginal and Torres Islander people or a substudy that's quite significant, engaging with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
And there's not a single Aboriginal person on these projects. And then they tell us they can't find one. And call out racism that was mentioned before. It's still not happening. It's still not happening. If you're at a pub, at a barbecue, if it's family. You know how I talked about being uncomfortable. Be uncomfortable. Call it out. It's really important for us, as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, that we see that people will do this, that we don't have to carry this load. Aunt said she doesn't need to be reconciled and I don't believe I do either. And I heard Janine Mohamed say, once you know, it's the 97%, 97% that need to lift their game and pull their weight. And honestly, that is what needs to happen. So when we're thinking about next steps, what are the big things? Then we ask of people. I've been reflecting on this first one a lot recently. Um, the do gooders, the good white people, the ones that think they've got it all covered and know what to do for us. They go it alone.
This is the epic mistake that they make. Where you sit there and you think that you know better than an Aboriginal person. And I've had that recently. Not for me personally, but one of my colleagues has experienced a situation as an Aboriginal person where all the non-Aboriginal people think they know better than her about Aboriginal stuff. That is not okay. Stand by us. Even when the going is tough, which you clearly do with your Uluru Statement t shirt. I'm picking on you. Sorry. And the other thing is, know that you won't necessarily be part of the conversations. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people just need some time, space to have our own conversations, to have our time to figure stuff out and let us have that time. I was chatting to Lyndon. I had my baby in September, so just before the referendum, and I was in the Act and I was watching the vote with dread, with absolute dread. After that, it took me a long time to even want to talk about the voice, to look people in the eye.
Luckily enough, I was a member for Cunningham, which did vote yes. So I go home and I walk around my town knowing that the majority of people, at least in the town I lived in, voted yes. That people wanted to talk about the voice afterwards. Dissect it. For a lot of us, we weren't ready. We wanted to have our own conversations internally about this, and this happens as well in anything that we do in our workplaces. Sometimes Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people just need to hash it out ourselves and figure out what we want. Before we can talk about it publicly. And the other thing I think is really important is understand when we don't, that we won't always agree with you. So even as an ally or an accomplice working with us, you think you know, you've got it sorted, you know where the boundaries are, you know what's needed, but we just might not agree with you. And that's okay. That doesn't mean you pack your bags and you go home. It means you pick yourself back up. And he stand with us and we need to stand together now.
Now more than ever is a fantastic theme for this year. We need to do more in this country, and we cannot do it by ourselves as 3% of the population. It just is not going to happen. So we need everybody to lift their game and do more. And that might feel like we're asking a lot of you, but as I said before, we don't have the luxury of opting out. We don't have the luxury of saying not today, or I'm going to take six months off or I'm going to do something else. Every single day is a day that we are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, and we have every single day more fights to fight. So we need you to help us do that. I just want to finish up by saying that I'm really grateful for the opportunity to be able to stand here and talk about this, but I hope in ten, 20 years time, my girls, particularly my oldest, I think she is likely to be the one that would stand on stage. But I hope she doesn't have to. Someone asked me once what I wanted. What do you want from all of this was a really loaded question and I was like, I just want to be Aboriginal.
I just want to be Aboriginal. And I walk down the street, I want to do my job and I just want to be. And that bang is ultimately what I think all of us would like not to have to answer the questions. Not to have to fight. But to have our culture celebrated, acknowledged and respected in a way that makes us feel proud of this country. And can I tell you, last year I was not proud sitting there watching the count. I was not proud reading the articles afterwards. I was not proud. I'd really like to be proud of the country that we now know as Australia. In its totality. Thank you. And all I'm going to say is don't whitewash. Whitewashing is when allies and accomplices drown out the voices of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Well-meaning. But please don't do that. This is me. Sorry. Our label. Thank you. Thank you again to Summer for a great address. And I'll invite you to just take a seat over there. While if you're okay with that while I introduce everyone else. Can we just while I introduce others, can we just give Summer another round of applause for.
The first person I'll invite to come and sit up here with us for the panel is, Professor Lindon Coombes. Lindon is the director of Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research here at UTS. Lindon is a descendant of the early people of North west New South Wales, and he's worked in a range of positions including director at PwC's Indigenous Consulting, CEO of the National Congress of Australia's First Peoples and CEO of Tranby Aboriginal College in Glebe. Welcome, Lindon and thank you. The next person I'd like to invite onto the stage is Professor Chris Cunneen. I think if there's an accomplice, if somebody's got an accomplice award, it could go to Chris. To Professor Cunneen. You know, when I was talking earlier about,  the things that are so sobering in this country, the, the actions of police, Chris has championed exposing that work and our treatment by police for generations for. Well, I probably shouldn't make him sound old, but for a long one for a long time now.
And it was Chris was the first person I ever heard described the role of police in colonisation. We didn't have a standing army that came here. We had the police, and the police were the arm of colonisation in the colony in the early days. And I think that relationship has changed somewhat, but not entirely. And Chris is somebody who I've always really admired for calling that out. He's a national and international, has a national and international reputation as a leading criminologist specialising in First Nations people and the law juvenile justice, restorative justice, police, prison issues and human rights. Welcome, Chris. Thank you.
Our last panelist. I'd like to invite is Elaine Laforteza. She's the equity and diversity project officer in the Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion here at UTS. Elaine's work has been published in peer reviewed academic journals and community media. She has authored the book The Somatechnics of Whiteness and Race. Elaine also hosts SBS, SBS award winning podcast My Bilingual Family and is an emerging playwright. Welcome, Elaine. Thank you. So I get to ask these guys a whole lot of questions now. But you also get to post in Slido. So and you can apparently vote questions up. So please, , knock yourselves out on Slido. However that works. Um, the first thing I'd like to ask all of you to reflect on and welcome. Thank you for coming and sitting with us today. So each of you have worked in First Nations advocacy across a range of, of, social justice needs and issues. Can you tell us a bit about your work and share some examples of good collaboration with non-Indigenous peoples, and where non-Indigenous peoples have been good accomplices?
I might start from? I think we might start over here and I can give you a little breather. Thank you. Elaine.

Thanks, Robynne. Oh, great. I don't have to figure out the tech. Yeah. Um, thank you so much for the beautiful introduction, Robynne. Um, I work at the Centre for Social Justice & Inclusion as the Equity and Diversity project officer. And I oversee the cultural diversity portfolio of this university. Easy task. Right. Because we've got that. And but what I also really look after is the coordination of our cultural diversity and anti-racism action plan. It's the first of its kind at UTS. It's going to be officially launched on August 12th, and it has a great acronym because UTS loves a good acronym, Cultural Diversity and Anti-Racism. The Cedar. Because we're planning to sow the seeds, plant the seeds till the soil and grow the cedar together. And I think, speaking to your question, Robynne, about good collaboration, the cedar obviously cannot hit the ground running without deep engagement with our First Nations community, our staff and our students. And priority one of this is focused on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultural capability and cultural safety, coordinated by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff, especially with barriers ending.
We have seven priorities in total. We don't just have Aboriginal cultural safety and capability as priority one. It's fed through all the priorities. So as has already been said, it's not a nice to have. It's you have to have at that cellular level. So we're not siloing okay. We're just going to be focusing on Aboriginal cultural capability and safety here. And then the rest of it, whatever, it's threaded through the whole thing. And I think collaboration for that community driven purpose to create solidarity is is baseline. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Robynne. Over to you, Chris, for, your experience.
So working. Yes, yes. Thank you. Um, thanks, Robyn. Um, I couldn't you know, it's been nearly 40 years that I've been working in communities, and it's really hard to think of 1 or 2 examples, you know, from the present working in communities around Australia around, uh, assisting with the implementation of the federal government's work on justice reinvestment. Um, but I thought I'd go to the other end of the spectrum when I first, which is kind of intersects with my biography, if you like, in the 1980s, as an example of good collaboration. And that involves the lead up and the struggle to establish the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody, which was led by the Committee to Defend Black Rights. Um, and I mean, one good reason for going back to that early stage is that what the CBR, the Committee to Defend Black Rights did, was really established, I suppose, a blueprint for how collaboration could work around, uh, issues, around deaths in custody and working with the families of people who died.
Um, and that was a really effective organisation in terms of bringing together the Aboriginal families, Aboriginal activists and also non-Indigenous activists into quite an effective group that had a strategy of engaging at the local community level, at the state and national level and at the international level. And it really and using multiple forms, , for that activism in terms of legal struggle, in terms of political struggle, in terms of the use of the media, the use of international NGOs like Amnesty International as well as some of the UN for at that time. And it's really set a blueprint in the sense that ongoing since that period of time, we see, you know, similar forms of, uh, activism around deaths in custody, again, involving both primarily and led by the families of people who of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who've died in custody but supported by non-Indigenous activists to the extent that they're able to do that. Um, thank you. I remember those days. Thank you.
It's really powerful time and important time. Thank you.

Lindon. Um. Yeah. Thanks, Robynne. And thanks, Auntie G for the lovely welcome. Um, for me, it's really Jumbunna. Um, that is a great example of, Indigenous and non-Indigenous people working together. It's a majority Indigenous team. But we do let some good white people like Chris, come on the team and work with us on a range of things. Um, but I was thinking about probably a more recent example. Um, again, sort of, reminded by aunty in that opening, remarks about the work of Doctor Paul Gray, who works on our child safety hub. Um, an incredible intellect and talent. Very passionate. Um, he did a great piece of work with the Act government about setting up the Act. Children and young people. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander commissioner. Um, and he did that sort of. We did that at the invitation of community, which is really important to us. Um, he engaged with community. Um, but at the same time, I have to give a wrap to. And I don't give many to bureaucrats, even though that's how I started out.
But the bureaucrats in the Act government knew how to support and how to get out of the way. I thought they were really good on that. And as a result, because of Paul's work, and the good work of the Act government, both elected and unelected people, we now have a Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, uh, children and young people Commissioner, which is now filled by an ex Jumbunna employee. So it sort of come full circle. And I also like that because that really represents the work that we do at Jumbunna. Um, you know, it's not research for research sake. It is about impact. It is about affecting change and making things happen. Um, and yeah, I just wanted to highlight that little piece of work from from Paul. Thank you. Summer. Anything you'd like to add? I actually just want to say I. I always talk about Croaky Health Media, and that is a collaboration. That is amazing. So Doctor Melissa Sweet, she started Croaky Health Media. And honestly, that is the best collaboration between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people.
And from that we have Just Justice, which is the book that Meg Williams was involved in. Mari McInerney and Mitchell Ward, as well as Melissa and myself. And that really was again raising the profile of the overincarceration of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It is our it's through the using our allies, using their privileges and platforms that we can actually see really good work. Thank you. Our next question is about common pitfalls and misconceptions. I don't know if you want to add anything or feel that you because I'm going to come back around this way. Is there anything you wanted to add apart from the things that you've spoken to us about? I think you might have to. That's all right. Just give me the chance to pass on that one. Thank you. Lindon, over to you. Yeah, it's probably just backing in. I thought that was good presentation. I one thing I guess I would warn against. There's a whole range of things, but a lot of my experience with well-meaning non-Indigenous people wanting to help came sort of just down the road here at Tranby Aboriginal College when I was the CEO there, just down here at Glebe and Glebe, you know, is interesting area.
There's social housing and people with lots of money and Tranby is just a nice little, you know, adult college nestled away there. And we had lots of well-meaning non-Indigenous people wanting to help and volunteer. And we, you know, like every other indigenous organisation, is under-resourced and, you know, really engaged with that, embraced those offers. But what I found was that I was wasting a lot of time, and we weren't getting the results. And it the lesson I took away from that is that I would rather pay, people be treated like, you know, valued client than depend on goodwill. So again, you know, we talked about being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Um, and so that was one of the lessons. And I guess the other thing was just, you know, some due diligence, a little bit about the organization, but about yourself, that you're the type of person that will come in, you know, the days of White Savior is over. Um, Indigenous people sort of know. They do know what what they're after.
And, you know, if you, you know, would encourage people to do it, you know, volunteer and do those things as a good ally, but, you know, a bit of introspection, you know, are you going to stick around when the organization doesn't take your advice? Are you going to stick around when you have a disagreement? And this is something I've learned over the course of my career, because I did that too. Like I would go into communities, think I had done this stuff before, give them some advice, and they gave thanks, but no thanks. And, you know, it got a bit indignant, and got smacked a lot along the way. And when I look back on that now, I'm really happy about that, because there were people who cared enough to smack me and correct me and teach me. Um, but, you know, if you're the type of person that might be a bit more sensitive around that, then have a think about that. But when you go work for black people, they're the boss. Um. Thanks, Lindon. Chris. Thanks. Um, one of the things that I'm involved in at the moment is, well, unsuccessfully, is working with the NT government around systemic racism.
That's why it's unsuccessful. Um, but I think one of the things that struck me is the level of denial, particularly of the impact and the nature of systemic racism as opposed to sort of individual racism. And that starts from the, you know, the CEO of government agencies all the way down, this denial that it's an issue, denial that it's a problem. We just saw it recently with an assistant commissioner in the Northern Territory of Police saying that he wasn't aware of any systemic racism in the Northern Territory police, which is hard to believe, unless you have an appalling understanding of racism. But I think it's but that then that following on from that the inadequacy of an understanding of what racism is, and even more importantly, an understanding of the harm that it actually causes people. Um, I think the other, uh, I suppose, pitfall, , and this, this has come out in some of the submissions that we've had to call it out, the racism Register, which I think I'll come back to you later to say something about, but it's quite clear that there can be retribution as well for non-Indigenous people who call out racism within an organisation.
It came out in some of the submissions that we had in relation to the workplace, where senior managers or even fellow workers, would not accept and would ostracize non-Aboriginal people who actually made the effort to call out racism. And so I think that's also, an issue. So there was one other thing. Oh yeah. The other thing that I wanted to mention is that also which came out of the call it Out Racism, Call it Out racism register was this idea that nothing can be done, that, you know, it's it's, it's there or sometimes associated with that, that it's that racism is only minor. It's just a joke, you know. What are you worried about? And again, that goes back to the question of a complete lack of understanding of what racism is and the harm that it causes people. Thank you. Thank you. Elaine. Did you have any comments on this particular question? Yeah, sure. I just want to go off what Chris was talking about, this understanding or lack of understanding of the significance of racism, because we do tend to think about racism as that we're experiencing it from the victim or survivor perspective, but not from the beneficiary perspective, because race privilege is also racism.
So for people to say I don't experience racism will probably be because you're benefiting it, right? You're within that comfort zone which allows you not to see racism as a significant thing. Um, that I think is a common misconception. And also another one is that non-Indigenous migrants in this country can't have a say or were kind of out of the loop, because we know with a lot of conversation and narratives with reconciliation, it often falls on that black white divide, right, or connections and disconnections. So what happens to folks who don't fit either category? It's kind of a loophole in a way. But to be just being present on this country, existing on this country, we've accrued a whole host of privileges based on the ongoing dispossession of Indigenous sovereignty. So we need to deeply care and really acknowledge the land that we're actually on in the countries that we move and play and work in and so on. And yeah, it's a continual learning process for me as well, but one that I always want to acknowledge and deeply invest in.
So thank you for having me here today. Thanks, Elaine. I think this takes us. Thank you, Auntie Glenda. It takes us to our next question, which is one for you. Summer around privilege, uh, and the importance of accomplices are never losing sight of their own privilege. And I guess all of us, to some extent, understanding our privilege. But in this, in this space particularly, did you want to reflect on that? And maybe some of the things that Chris has called out around what it can cost and being able to stay there? Privilege is something I think people actually don't like thinking about. I think about privilege within myself as an Aboriginal woman who's well educated, who is fairer, who. Does have. A capacity to talk back to the powers, and I really struggle with the fact that people don't understand their own privilege. I teach this in my class and I get people to reflect on their privilege. Male. Female. White. Not white. And it is something that you actually really need to understand.
And Elaine's talked about how you benefit from the ongoing dispossession of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. That is a privilege in and of itself. On top of everything else that you're experiencing, I had to explain to someone, a family member there, a non-Aboriginal family member. They walk in a room. And they don't get looked at. They don't get asked like my brother did if they run on curry time when he went for an interview at uni. Yeah. Um. We don't have those same dramas. As an Aboriginal woman sitting on a phone. The first time I had, my first was during Covid, so I had my first antenatal appointment on the phone. I got asked if I wanted a social worker three times. Not a single. Person. None of my white friends got asked if they needed a social worker three times, and I hear Auntie Glendra, and the first thought was am I going to be flagged? You have a privilege of not having to worry about whether your kids are going to be removed. You have a privilege of not assuming that you need a social worker.
Asked my GP and she said, what do you tell them? Did you? Do you tell them more about yourself than what I know? And I was like, oh no, you know, way more than they do. And they still offered me a social worker three times. So. I'd ask everybody to think about their privilege because you do benefit from this. And speaking about Chris, the literally racism and the microaggressions or the, comments like I talked about before their death by a thousand cuts. And not all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have the same capacity to continue getting back up. We get knocked down, we get back out, we get knocked down. But when do we stop getting up? When do you stop fighting? Um, I probably didn't quite answer the question the way, but I was thinking about privilege, and it's an important thing to really be checking, and all of us need to be checking it and myself included in that space. Like when we go to communities that aren't ours that we're not familiar with. I have to check my privilege.
Um. Thank you. Chris. The next question is going back to some of your reflections, maybe on the Call it Out register and how that, is operating and what it tells us about how people are going when they call out racism in their workplace or other environments. And any observations you have about how people can support the calling out of racism and all of everything around those things that you were just referring to. Yeah. Look, I think also just to say something about privilege as well, and I think that, you know, it constantly requires, as a non-Indigenous person working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities and organisations, constant, , reflection, you know, self-reflection about what that privilege means. And I was thinking again, some of the examples from Call It Out where non-Aboriginal people have intervened in situations. Um, one example that was on the register was a non-Indigenous male and female, a couple walking down the street seeing the police assault an Aboriginal woman.
Uh, they intervened. Um, and the result of that was that the Aboriginal woman was arrested. The non-Indigenous man was also assaulted and arrested and taken away. Um, so but you know, that that still doesn't, you know, prevent or preclude self-reflection about privilege. That person was arrested because he intervened into the situation. But the point was, it wasn't the police sitting on him, uh, with his, you know, with their knee in his back assaulting him. Um, and so even in those sorts of situations, there is still room to consider those, those issues around privilege. Um, the other example I was just thinking about, too, was one that relates to Jumbunna. But many years ago, about 15 years ago, and it involved an Australian police force approaching Jumbunna to do some work evaluation work on their Aboriginal police liaison officers and the director. I was at working at Jumbunna, then the director at the time, contacted me, , to see if I wanted to work on the project and they put up the submission, uh, to do the work for this police service and the police service got back to them and said, uh, that I had to be taken off the , staff list for, to do the work because of previous comments that I'd made about the problems of systemic racism in that particular police force.
Um, and the director of Jumbunna at the time got back to them and basically told them to bugger off. They weren't going to tell her who was going to be doing the research or not. Uh, it had no impact really on me, but it did have an impact on Jumbunna because, Jumbunna, uh, lost the wasn't awarded the contract to do the work. So again, just going back to that issue around self-reflection and and privilege, it was actually the Aboriginal organisation that was punished, uh, for me rather than, than myself. And so, yeah, there's a whole kind of range of layers, if you like, to how these sorts of issues can play out.
Um, can I. Can I go back to the example of the assault on the street? So really, in some ways you could say that the non-Indigenous person was dealt in to the structural racism and bore the consequences of that. And I think some of the some of the things that we wanted to reflect on today was the way in which it does take courage to stay when you are through. Kindness through genuine compassion of a person being assaulted. Yeah. Deal yourself in to the structural racism that will impact on non-Indigenous people as well. I don't know if you want to frame. See that. Yeah. Look, I definitely and I think yeah, there was another example in in the Call it Out register of a non-Indigenous worker in the hospitality industry. I think it was I can't remember now if it was a hotel or whatever. And a casual non-Indigenous employee who put in a complaint about racism against Aboriginal patrons and she was dismissed and lost her job. And I'm not suggesting for a moment there's any equivalence, if you like, in terms of the harms of racism.
But but I am suggesting it doesn't necessarily come without some consequences. And requires courage to stay the course, I suppose, too. So yeah. Absolutely. So, Lindon, we wanted to talk a bit about treaty and your because it's a, you know, it was a part of the Uluru Statement that we've talked about, and it's been a long standing commitment of your personal commitment of yours that that is a way forward. Do you want to talk about that, your your personal commitment to that or. Um. What you see is the value of treaty, I guess is what I'm getting at, and also the role that non-Indigenous people might play in supporting that. Um, yeah, I guess, Starting out in Aboriginal affairs, had always thought that a, you know, a treaty was required. But my understanding of treaties has grown over that period. Um, so we're currently doing we're research partner with Aboriginal Affairs New South Wales, who are embarking on an engagement process with Indigenous people in New South Wales around treaty.
Um, we've done some work in Victoria with the commissioners there and are in the process of, putting in a proposal to be research partner down there. So, we we're building a capability within Jumbunna around treaty. Um, and when I first came here, I was talking to Larissa and she was saying, oh, you know, what would you like to focus on? And I said, treaty. And when I got here and I started focusing on treaty as shit my pants a bit because it's such a big, complex thing. And I was like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do here? And so, yeah, maybe coming at it in, you know, in a more incremental way, in the way that we've been able to do it. But I mentioned at the start that my understanding and my feeling about treaty changed as well. We've mentioned the referendum and, Summer and I were sort of saying it's going to be really hard to be positive here because we're still wearing some hurt from that. And Aboriginal communities are and I think that needs to be recognised, you know, and hopefully next year we'll have a much more positive conversation around things that are happening.
But, following the referendum and talking to a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, there's now a harder edge to our engagement and advocacy. And so that's why this is a good topic in in a way, because it's saying, you know, again, an uncomfortable moment and an uncomfortable truth that we're not here to make people feel nice, you know, to do nice stuff with Aboriginal organisations or volunteer. Um, you know, we want a proper relationship and we want value out of that relationship. And I think we're going to be more forthright in those discussions going forward. And the other part to that is that we can't rely on the 97% or goodwill for us to progress, for good things to happen. For us, it has to be a rights-based approach now and treaties, one of the things that can do that. So there's a renewed focus on, on on our rights, implementing those doing things that aren't dependent on democracy, that aren't dependent on goodwill. Um, and so there has been, yeah, I think a hardening of, Indigenous people, particularly working in this space.
Um, and we'll see how that goes. Do you think that the treaty, that sort of treaty conversation is going to require a bit of a reset amongst non-Indigenous people in the way that they think about us to come to a workable agreement or series of agreements? Yeah, yeah, I do, and I think that's, you know, it's another challenge, I think, for people who believe they are fair minded, who support Indigenous rights, who understand, , the history of this country, that's probably the next challenge is, you know, how are you going to play a part, , in the next campaign? Because we, you know, we're not just going to go, have a look in the corner where we're back out swinging, you know, and are you going to be standing, you know, beside us when we do that? Um. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So, Elaine, you work in the social justice inclusion, and your area is around multiculturalism. You want to speak to the potential for multiculturalism, for allyship, and accomplish a what's the verb from accomplice or the noun or whatever it is?
And how do multicultural how does a multicultural community get to be a good accomplice, good accomplice, licensee or something? Accomplices? I'm not sure English is my third language, so probably you. Have a good. You have an excuse I don't have. But I'll give it to you, though. Anyway, half of the question. Yeah, well, no, thank you for the question, Robynne. I would like, to highlight a project that I'm coordinating at the moment, which really speaks to how multicultural communities and multilingual communities can connect more deeply to Indigenous sovereignty and amplifying this, and it's called Acknowledgements of Country. It's not a very original title but doesn't have an acronym yet that UTS loves. We'll get there. Yeah, but I was really inspired by a panel that I facilitated for International Mother Language Day in February, and we had Lachlan McDaniel, who's a Wiradjuri man, and Casey, who's Irish Australian, and Neta Dowling, who's Afghani Australian. And Lachlan was talking about him learning Wiradjuri.
So his mother tongue and not hearing this until he was an adult. So when his 20s, which was only like five years ago for me. No, no it wasn't no long, long ago. But and Anne, who's Irish Australian, delivered an Acknowledgement of Country in her mother tongue Irish and I was their stories really stayed with me and I thought how beautiful it was to hear an acknowledgement of country in a mother tongue and the significance of the violence of language loss that Lachlan articulated and the importance of language revitalisation. So I thought, how can we connect the two together? So this project is about asking our UTS staff and students, our community, to research and to record and acknowledgement of country in their mother tongue. This has meant that because I think, well, most people are aware that when we are asked to engage or when we want to engage with Indigenous sovereignty and reconciliation, it's always through English, it's always through the framework of Western whiteness. And already there's that disconnect about coming from migrant culture or language and connecting deeply with Indigenous sovereignty.
And I thought the power of connecting to this from our multicultural roots. So where we're from and multicultural roots, where we can be and where we want to be and where we want to sit and walk and stand, and I can't do much sitting or maybe lie and be with people as well, has to come from that place which is not girded by colonisation. Um, and so SBS already have an audio data bank of the most common languages spoken in Australia, but I wanted it to come from our community and have that storytelling, story sharing aspect of it. So asking our participants, what's the significance of talking in your mother tongue? How is it significant when you use your mother tongue to do an acknowledgement of country? And what can we do beyond this as well? So it's been such a it's a really beautiful project to be a part of. Um, we're still going through it. Anyone who wants to join in are welcome to join. We have about 24 languages recorded, including Wiradjuri. Um, we're extending that SBS project by having First Nations people in Australia and outside.
So a lot of our Pacific brothers and sisters are also a part of this journey with us. Um, we've got Greek, French, Sindhi, Tamil, Hindu, 24 languages. I won't list them all now, but, I think that is one way we can contribute. But with that honest reckoning of who we are and where we're actually at in this journey, and be really honest about it, that self-reflection, constant self-reflection, which I feel has come along with this project when we talk within our communities about connecting to diverse communities. Thank you. Thanks, Robyn. It's a conversation today. I think about how we are as individuals and how the institutions of the nation are. I wonder if any of you have any reflections on how this institution and university, maybe not just this institution, but universities can be good allies. How can what can universities as institutions, do to contribute to reconciliation? Do we start up the other end summer, if you'd like to go first or. Sure. Um, so obviously I'm at the University of Wollongong, which is.
Is beautiful, beautiful place to live and work. But universities more broadly are. They're got immense amount of privilege and wealth, and yet they're often really unsafe places for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to work. Um, people often research on us. There are people who have made their professorship built on the backs of our communities. Um, and what we need to be doing is ensuring that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are in a place in a position within those universities where their voices are privileged over those that have non-Aboriginal people who literally have built their careers on us. Universities need to be giving back to communities the sense of reciprocity, which we talk about. It's like, you know, when it comes to research, it's not a $50 voucher, right? That's like low hanging fruit reciprocity, thinking about working with our communities to understand what they want to do, what research they want, what evaluations they want, and how they want stuff to be taught.
Bringing the community in to the universities and not always centering the needs of universities. That's been my experience. I have to say. Michael McDaniel was at University of Macquarie when I was there, and I've watched him go through and I've watched him work and the way he has always aimed to centre Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people the same as Bronwyn Fredericks, who's one of my mentors. But they have a lot of work still to do. Um, so for me, really, I would say. Stop and reflect and do that kind of introspection as universities, as individual staff, as well as the systemic stuff, because can I just say the other thing is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, like, I've got doctor in front of my name, right. But I knew stuff before I got that. Yeah. People don't actually, within universities recognise or accept that we often have skills and expertise and knowledge before we get that doctor. If there's one thing I would ask universities to do, and I'm not saying PhDs aren't important, I loved it.
It's not for everyone, but I would encourage anyone to want to do them, do them, but recognize it's a hell of a lot harder than what you actually think it is when you first start. Um, but actually value our knowledge as an expertise, whether we've got doctor in front of our name or not. Just one thing. If that's if you could do one thing as a university, that's what I'd be asking. Thank you. Lindon. Um, yeah. Look, I feel really privileged to work at UTS. I'm not a traditional academic, but I've talked to and read about some just horrendous experiences that, Indigenous people have had in tertiary institutions, in this country. Um, and it's been the work of Larissa and Michael he mentioned before, and really grateful to the the current leadership of Vicki and Andrew. I'm not just saying that because we have a resourcing meeting tomorrow. Vicki. Um, but we are grateful for that. Um, so to have that space, it feels really privileged. And, you know, when we think about treaty and the referendum, I sort of thought about it in institutions and industries.
You know, I think, you know, the same sex marriage plebiscite that was done fairly well. Like, you know, you get an industry rather than sort of just converting individuals and universities just have, you know, an extremely important role in that, , which I think most of them recognize, but there's a lot of work that needs to be done to allow black voices across all of those institutions. What about voices out? I'll just before I leave you to voices out into the community, looking inside, but also out the role of as of us as institutions. Any reflections on that? Um, I'll give one example. So one of our projects at the moment is a revisionist history of attic. Yes. Um, and the importance of that. Second, so the narrative that the majority of people have out there is that attic was this abject failure of Aboriginal policy. And, you know, it was so bad that to close it down, it was not a cave did a lot of great work. And one of the things talking about voices is that through regional councils, it gave voice to our mob out there, you know, and it hasn't been done before or since in that way.
And we got to hear from people like Steve Gordon and Sam Jeffries, these people who super smart, great advocates, but because they were based out in Brewarrina, and Bourke and, you know, in remote areas, we didn't hear them, but they brought so much to that. Um, and so, you know, we're a long way off having that kind of representation, but that is a massive gap. Um, you know, without that representation, I think, you know, there wouldn't have been if ATSIC was still around, I firmly believe there wouldn't have been the intervention in the Northern Territory. I think we would have got the referendum over the line. I think it makes a big difference having that. And that's because of those voices. Yeah. And I want to add to the enormous role that ATSIC played in international work. Right now we have representatives in Ypo, helping, you know, as, as advocates into a treaty representing traditional knowledge in the work on the use of genetic resources and traditional knowledge at absolutely laid the foundation for our engagement in the UN and other international forums, and it is such a misunderstood or misrepresented history.
I'm very excited that that Jumbunna is is doing a revisionist history of that. It's really it's a really important story to tell and really important to tell the truth. Again, we just must not get this sort of, you know, this kind of, you know, reinventing, reinventing truths. You know, ATSIC was not perfect. No institution is. But it was also amazing. And Jumbunna, I think does you're right. Has a really it's a really important role in telling the story out there of our experience and what we led back then with government in government. Chris, did you want to reflect on the role of institutions? I was just I. Was actually reflecting on the role of and just to add to what you both said, it was the only organisation that held any government accountable in the post Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in custody. And with its demise, there was no accountability left at all. And so it played an extraordinarily important role in relation to that as well as in international fora. Um, look, in terms of institutions, , and I'm not just saying this because Lindon is sitting next to me, but, you know, Jumbunna is a great example, I think, of what can be done in a university.
Um, I've had I've worked in four universities over my career. Um, I'd also add that UNSW Law School, where I was previously coming to Jumbunna, also had a great Indigenous program running there and has been a strong supporter through the. What was the Aboriginal Law Centre originally? Um, but you know, institutions vary and I've worked at other one other one which I even worry about naming, which is a prestigious law school. And I was there for 15 years and they, I can't remember how many. Aboriginal graduates I had, but you could count them on one hand, probably, and really didn't see that as a problem. So I think, yeah, I don't think it's a kind of blanket thing with institutions. I think they're highly variable. Um. Yeah. Mhm. Thank you. I just have to put a call out. Whoever's running Slido, I can't see any questions. Just if anyone can help me with that I'll just a little side note somewhere. Were you wanting to say something. Well I was. I was just thinking about institutions.
And I'm reflecting on a conversation I had with, one of my colleagues last week. Uh, universities have a whole bunch of knowledge artifacts that are Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. And we would and my colleague, we're redoing our research strategy at UOW and part of the Indigenous data sovereignty stuff. He was mentioning that we need to be doing an audit of what University of Wollongong has and thinking about repatriation. Oh thank you, thank you. I think that that is something that universities really need to be thinking about. You don't own our stuff. You don't own our culture. You don't own our histories. Universities, in some instances, know more about. An Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander nation, then what that nation might have. I went, I was doing I was facilitating a workshop on behalf of Minister Wyatt for the midlife malaise report down in Tasmania. And that's what they said down there. There is institutions down there that has knowledges that they don't even know about.
So I would just actually say that as a place of knowledge, knowledge needs to be shared and repatriated as well as just the artefacts. Thank you. I feel that I must do. Sorry. Do you want to? Have you got anything you'd like to say about that, Elaine? Sure. Short and sweet. Fund the work. There's a whole. Just fund the work. Sorry. Just fund the work. Yeah. Fund the work adequately, please. Okay. Thank you. I really like this. This is not top of the list, but how do we talk about reconciliation and not talk about decolonisation? Anyone want to take that? I just got to put a few questions out. Let's see if anyone wants to. Um. You can't, you know. Thinking I was like. Okay, excellent. Okay. That's a good quick answer to that one. The top the question that has the most votes is how do we, consider the cultural load for Aboriginal people in this, in this conversation, as we are, talking about reconciliation in institutions and in the community. Any reflections on the cultural load that Indigenous people carry and how we are observant of that?
This gets brought up all the time. Cultural load. Uh. It's unavoidable. We are when we're talking about decolonizing, we will have a cultural load. But I actually just want to say one thing about that the cultural load. And again, some advice that something that I hear a lot like I just had this conversation last week actually with somebody where they said, oh, but we don't want to keep asking Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to do stuff. How do we stop that? Cause that that was their reason why they went ahead and did stuff without us. And I was like, whoa, whoa, hang up a sec. Just you can't be doing that without us. And the answer is, you just need to talk to us. You just need to ask us. Never issued. Our cultural load is too high. I'll say no if I don't have capacity. If I don't think it's a priority, if I don't think it's of interest, we'll say no. But never be paternalistic and assume on our behalf that we can't carry the particular load that you're asking. Can I ask if this if that is a fair, fair answer to this question as well?
How do we engage and preference Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander voices without overburdening the overburdening the community is ask us and we will tell you a fair answer to that as well. Absolutely. And to not do that, it's infantilising us. Okay. So, one of the other questions is, uh, about is I work with many British people who feel uncomfortable with delivering an acknowledgement of country. How can we help them? So flipping that a bit, too, I think I think we take that as a serious question. How do we help people feel? It's not me laughing here. How do we help people feel more comfortable as Auntie Glendra, I think, or somebody was saying, you know, we don't I think somewhere it was you who said, don't just leave the acknowledgement of country always to the Indigenous people. So how do we help people have a sense of comfort around or, ah, be informed about it. Perhaps. Maybe I'm answering my own question here, but. Or their question. But over to you guys. If I can take this, I think it hits at the heart of what everyone's talking about.
It's truth telling. So it's just acknowledging the truth, really. And what you were saying about repatriations, before Summer, the British Museum is the least British thing because, you know, with all the things that they've stolen from all the colonized lands that they've colonized. Right. So let's start there and acknowledge and, and the whole thing about being uncomfortable and that that's fine. Yeah. But get over it, okay. Please. Again thing. Please. Okay. These are really these are really these are much better questions than ours. Any tips for responding to people calling you woke or tokenistic? Linden. You going for it there? Oh, anyone who uses woke like unseriously, they're not serious person. I find it's going to be hard to have a conversation with that person. It's just, you know, they've got the red hat on. You can keep them out of the conversation. Can I just go back to the acknowledgement one? Can I just say anyone who's feeling uncomfortable about doing an acknowledgement, if you hear them, the first question you should be asking them is why?
It's an acknowledgement. It's a couple of words.
They're not. They're getting told like I was, that even if I didn't have gestational diabetes or was 40 having my first baby, I would still be high risk because I'm Aboriginal. Getting offered a social worker three times, worried about being flagged. Do a bloody Acknowledgement of Country. Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. I have to say, there were really good questions here for people who sent them in, and we've run out of time. I'm sorry. This was my technical inability because they're really excellent questions and we have run out of time. I think I just around the floor for any closing remarks that you'd like to make, and you've got only about 30s each. Um, I'll just very quickly, it's not about you is probably the, the takeaway and I always apply that to me and it's an Indigenous value. It's not about you, it's about the collective. So it's not about you getting butthurt because blackfellas don't disagree with you. It's about the collective. And if you're committed to that, then, you know, we've got to always got a place for you.
Thank you. Chris. Yeah. Um, I want to give a quick plug to Call it Out, which is the racism register that Jumbunna and the National Justice Project established. And we've just launched a mobile app to make it easier for people to register instances of racism. So you can either do it online on your computer, or you can go to Google Play or the App Store and download it onto your mobile phone. Um, we've had about a thousand registrations over the last two years. Uh, it's really important that we can paint an accurate picture of the nature, the extent of racism against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And it's very easy for you all to contribute to that story. Thank you. We have actually had you wouldn't have seen it. But that slide, it's not up there now, but we've had the slide with the images of it. I've call it out. Thank you. I'm going to come back to you some. As for closing remarks, Elaine, anything you'd like to. Yeah, sure. Just going off, Chris, what gets measured mattered matters.
Right? So make sure to contribute to that process. And in just in my language maraming salamat. Thank you so much for having me here. Thank you Elaine. Some are any last remarks you'd like to make? I just want to say thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. Um, and I'm just channelling one of my colleagues who, again, I had a lot of really important conversations last week, which you can probably tell. And this particular colleague says never be the compliant native. And we don't use that word. But the sentiment is there always, always, always, always create a space where we don't have to be compliant. Thank you. I want to thank you all for, for for coming along today. And for those of you online, I think it's a wonderful call out for, for, , courage and, and continuing to call this nation to account for our history and making a better tomorrow. Can you thank our panellists? Thank you. That's it. Thank you very much for joining us and have a great day. Thanks a lot.