Brennan Justice Talks 2024 Review of the Special Commission of Inquiry into LGBTIQ Hate Crimes

Anthea: Good evening everyone, and it's my absolute pleasure to welcome you to the first event in the Brennan Justice talk series for this session, and tonight's presentation, which is entitled the Special Commission of Inquiry into LGBTQI hate crimes; exposing historical wrongs and improving current practice. My name is Dr Anthea Vogel and I'm the Faculty Co-Director of the Brennan Justice Program and it's a delight to see you all here, and I'm really looking forward to this evening's presentation. I am joined tonight by a few key members of our Brennan Justice team. One of my fellow Co-Directors from the Law Student Society, the wonderful Chloe Mackay, Crystal Meikle, our Student Programs Coordinator, former Brennan Justice Co-Director Associate Professor Jane Wangmann, and most importantly our special guest and presenter for this evening Nicholas Stewart. Before we officially begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and it's on these lands that the City Campus of UTS now stands. I would like to pay my respect to Elders past and present, and acknowledge them as the traditional custodians of knowledge for this land, over which sovereignty has never been ceeded. Tonight we have the pleasure of being connected with UTS Law Students across multiple stages in their degrees and locations, all passionate about social justice. I'll take a moment before we launch into tonight's proceedings to lay out some light Zoom housekeeping, which many of you from your many Zoom classes will be familiar with, but just some reminders that this event is being recorded for teaching, learning and event purposes only. Only key speakers tonight and those who ask a question in discussion time, will appear in the zoom recording. You of course each have the ability to hide and show your cameras as well as to mute and unmute your microphones. As you know from your classes, when you are not speaking please put your microphone on mute. There will be time for questions at the end and I encourage you all to engage following the talk. You can do this by raising your hand at the close of the presentation, but you can do this throughout the talk as well by popping a question into the chat, uh, or after the presentation too. Tonight we expect a lot of the Brennan Community to tune in so please do turn the camera on when asking a question in discussion time, we'd love to see your face. Lastly Student ROJ points will be automatically accured by tuning into this talk, but please do shoot Crystal a quick message in the chat if your display name is different to the name listed on- your name listed on Career Hub.

Now after all that housekeeping is settled, I'd like to formally introduce you to our special guest and key speaker tonight; Nicholas Stewart. Nicholas is a partner at Dowson Turco Lawyers based in Macquarie Street Sydney. He is the Vice President of the Australian Lawyers for Human Rights and a casual lecturer with the Diplomacy Training Program, Vice President of the new theater, and longtime member of the Diversity and Inclusion Committee of the Law Society of New South Wales, where he's also chair of the Women's Advancement Subcommittee. Nicholas has passionately led the campaign for two inquiries and a Judicial Commission of Inquiry into LGBTQI hate crimes in New South Wales. He holds a Bachelor of Commerce and a Bachelor of Laws, and in 2008 Nicholas was awarded the Elizabeth Hastings Memorial Human Rights Award and I'm very pleased to say the UTS Law Alumni Association Award. And in 2018 Nicholas was awarded the UTS Alumni Award for Community Collaboration. Nicholas is a Friend of Distinction at UTS and an Adjunct Fellow at UTS Law. In 2023, Nicholas was awarded the ACON New South Wales uh President Award and in 2022 he was was awarded the prestigious Law Society of New South Wales President's Medal. And I would add to that that he is a longtime supporter and really valued contributor to the Brennan Justice program here at UTS Law. Before I hand over so you can hear from Nicholas himself on the topic of tonight's talk, I wanted to also note the devastating news of the alleged murder of Jesse Baird and his partner Luke Davis by a serving police officer, and acknowledge the grief, immense suffering, and loss for both men's friends and family, and the pain that they are experiencing right now as well, as the pain being experienced by members of the broader LGBTQI Community. I really appreciate that we're all able to come together as a Brennan Community to reflect on the themes and questions of justice that will be the subject of tonight's talk. And so over to you Nicholas, thanks so much.

Nicholas: Thank you so much Anthea, and thank you everyone for having me tonight. Before I start I want to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, they're the traditional custodians of the land that I am coming to you from, and I pay my respects to the Elders both past and present. I always start any student talks by encouraging people to contact me or connect with me on LinkedIn, it's a professional network where students are welcome and I find it's the best place to engage with the profession, share ideas, and share content that is of interest to us, but also to build your career networks. And so I would encourage all of you to connect with me and message me because I'll make sure that I reply. The first big issue I want to talk about before we get into the substantive talk is that members of our First Nations community in Australia still need justice, and even though the LGBT community is on the path to justice, and I always question what you know what does justice mean, but from a First Nation's point of view, Australia should be looking at a royal commission into historical unsolved deaths of First Nations People. Too many First Nations people have died at the hands of murderers, and their deaths have not been investigated at all, or have been investigated and those death have wrongly been written off as suicides or misadventure. So I just wanted to call that out because I acknowledge the very privileged position I'm in, and because of my education and the colour of my skin I've been able to bring about justice or some form of justice for the LGBT community, but I'm conscious that the First Nations Community is still wanting that. Tonight I'm going to be talking to you a bit about the background to how this all came about, and why it's so important that we focus the lens on the truth, um, of our history in New South Wales but also finding the perpetrators whove committed atrocious crimes. I then want to talk to you about just the legal foundations of a Special Commission Inquiry compared to say a Royal Commission, just primarily for students, so that you understand the differences, and then I want to talk about the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into LGBT hate crimes and what it examined and what it recommended in terms of the future. You know people often ask ask me why have I become involved in this, and it's a story I tell a lot but I think it's a important story to tell. When I was 14, I worked at a KFC store on the lower Northshore and one Saturday night, a relief manager was appointed to run the store and he was from the King's Cross KFC operation, and he arrived at the store wearing the a pink shirt which was ordinarily associated with female managers not with men- the men wore blue shirts back in that time I don't know what they were now- um and his name was Alan and he was so... beautiful like and I don't mean that in aesthetically, I mean he was a really good manager he made sure we all knew what were doing that night, he introduced himself, he was friendly he wasn't stressed, and he you know he ran a really tight ship. And I was so young and naive, um, and I just thought this guy was amazing and he was just doing a great job and at the time I wasn't out, I didn't even know that I was a gay man... or a gay kid at that time. Um, anyway one of my colleagues came up to me and whispered in my ear while pointing at Alan... [silence] sorry ... and he said "You know at night we hunt down people like that and we bash them in parks- um- we find them where they go to be together," and I just couldn't believe what I was hearing you know, and that night I just kind of went into my shell and ... anyway I never spoke about it again but it's just so important that we get truth and justice because gangs of youths, gangs of adults, men and women, went out onto the streets to target the LGBT community for bashings, killings, and robberies and you know what I just- I'm not going to stop until we get some prosecutions because there are people walking with impunity out there. They've been able to set up their own families and have their own lives when they've, you know, committed atrocious crimes.

These are some of the images of people who have either been murdered or bashed and I realise that's really confronting, but I want to put on the record that these people have been talked about in- in the past and you can see the nature of these publications is that they are historical. It's really important that we show their faces and we speak their names because they shouldn't be forgotten, and the people I've chosen here are relevant to this talk because there were a lot of things that came out of the inquiry related to these people and I'm going to talk in-depth about them now. Another thing I want to talk about is the Grim Reaper Campaign, which many people won't know was a campaign run by the New South Wales government in- well in by the Federal government actually to educate the wider community in the early '90s about the HIV AIDS epidemic. That campaign depicted women and children in heterosexual families being bowled over by a bowling ball that was thrown by the Grim Reaper, and the effect of the campaign was to use shock tactics to really get change because people were dying, and it was actually a really scary time. I was really young during that time but I still remember this advertising campaign but what I've learned over the many years that I've been working in pursuit of truth and justice is that this campaign had, uh, negative impacts for the LGBT community: it alienated us, it made us look like a fringe group that was carrying this disease, and we've all just been through the Covid pandemic we know what that's like, imagine if the only people who were thought to have Covid were members of the LGBT community and think about how society might have reacted then; that's what happened in the '80s and '90s. It was- was associated with gay men and um, unfortunately this campaign just pushed us to the fringe, but it also came at a time when we were a liberated group across Australia, we had our relationships were decriminalised, we were allowed to have intimate relationships and so we became more visible and liberated: we were out on the streets, we were wearing colourful clothes, and we were going to nightclubs, and you know trans people felt a little bit more comfortable to- to dress in their chosen gender. Drag queens were everywhere, but that was also at a time when people who had seen this adverstisement and held deep prejudices towards our community; they targeted us and we were a target because we were also a liberated group.  John Russell is someone who was, um, murdered and his body was found in 1989 at the base of cliffs in Marks Park in Bondi. He had recently inherited, at the time when he went missing, he had inherited money from his grandfather and grandparents to build a home on his father's property. And he was having dinner with her friend to say goodbye before he went on this adventure, and was talking about having the best time of his life, and was really looking forward to the future, but unfortunately that future ... never came about. The interesting issue about John's death is that when he was found at the base of cliffs, his legs were pointed towards the ocean and his head was facing the cliffs. Uh, that was unusual. And another unusual aspect of his whole case was when he was found, there were human hairs found in his palm, um, and those hairs were bagged and placed into an exhibit by New South Wales's police investigating officers but the exhibit was lost, and so unfortunately, the person whose hair was in John's hand has never been identified. Um.. the other really sad factor of John's death is that investigative police suggested that it was accidental and that he simply met with misadventure, and the effect of those prejudices, and I say that there were prejudices and the Commission Inquiry found that there was a lot of prejudice when it came to police officers investigating the deaths of gay- gay men and trans people , and the effect of that was that the investigation was closed and there was no, indepth investigation to who might have harmed him or if his death was even an accident. Gilles Mattaini was a French national who also um... [inaudible] has found was murdered around the same time of John Russell, but he's never been found. Um.. Mr Mattaini had a relationship here and all of the evidence points to him, um.. living a really good life here, although there was some suggestion that he experienced mental health episodes back in France, but I would speculate that maybe that was connected to him not being able to live his true life and I think from all the evidence he was having a good time in Australia. He was not known to go to beats or engage in sexual acts in public, but he was known to just taking our beautiful city, and going to our beautiful coastline and observe the natural beauty of it. And sadly he did that one night and it's believed that he was set upon by people who don't like gay men and was murdered. Um.. the image I've got there is an image of a memorial that's been created, funded by the Waverly Council the New South Wales government and Acon New South Wales which is in memorial of all members of the LGBTQ community who have fallen victim to murder and hate crimes but particularly those who lost their lives at Marks Park on the cliffs of Bondi, and I would encourage you all to have a look at that because it's  a beautiful monument, and I was lucky enough to attend a memorial at sunrise, last weekend actually, which was really beautiful.

Um.. the image I've got there is Justice John Sackar who presided over the Special Commission of inquiry into LGBT hate crimes his honor as a Supreme Court Judge and he- uh- his efforts during this inquiry were just exceptional. The amount of work that went into this inquiry, I don't think- I don't think anyone's ever seen anything quite like it and it's a testament to New South Wales really because we're the first jurisdiction in the world to conduct an inquiry like this. Um.. so um thank you to Justice John Sackar. Um.. Ross Warren is the third person I want to talk about in that kind of trilogy of cases because he was another person who went missing at Marks Park around 1989. He was a well-known news reader from Wollongong and had no reason to you know- want to kill himself. He went missing after having a night out with some friends he drove up to Sydney from Wollongong met up with some friends, and then late that night he went for a drive, and his friends said that he drove off towards the east, they didn't know where he was going but he was on Oxford heading to the east. Um.. his car was eventually found close by in Kent Street just by Marks Park and his disappearance was reported to police. Unfortunately, one of the- one of the features of this case, is that it wasn't police who found Mr Warren's keys to his car, it was his friends who found them the next day, uh, and that just kind of shows this- probably the approach of police officers to his disappearance. Um.. and the other thing is that as the years went on Ross's body has never been found. His mother wrote to the commissioner of police multiple times, um, I think about six times, and her letters were ignored and her letters were effectively... you know my- my son has gone missing and I want police to do something about it and I want to be able to finalise his affairs and um... anyway, it was because of a really good police officer that Ross's death, John Russell's death, and Gilles Mattaini's death all became the subject of a colonial inquest presided over by Jacqueline Milledge who's a phenomenal magistrate in New South Wales, and who was at the time Deputy State Coroner. I'll talk more about that in due course.

Um.. I'm showing images here of two members of the LGBT community who were murdered last week, and the reason Anthea talked about their deaths at the opening of this session, but the reason I've put them here is because I want to draw your attention to the comments on YouTube from a video, a News Bulletin about from 10 news about their deaths. And what I'm saying here is that we are still a vulnerable group, and we are still exposed to hatred, ridicule contempt, and violence every day and you only have to look at social media to see just how deep-seated people's prejudices are. Um.. the comments on these posts are absolutely disgusting, and people just feel so free to say whatever they want on social media, and it's probably time that we had laws that were tighter in terms of prosecuting people. I would argue, I'm a criminal lawyer, and I would argue that some of these people have engaged in criminal offences. Anyway, I just want to put that there because this is last week and a lot of the cases I'm talking about 30 years ago, but- um, people have feelings which I would suggest are equivalent to the people who murdered John Russell and Gilles Mattaini, and Ross Warren, those people are commenting on social media now. Justice Sackar made these comments in relation to his findings, and I wanted to put them there in text so everyone can see, but he said that all of the deaths that his inquiry looked at... most of them experienced lonely and terrifying deaths. And their lives were cut short. And in many cases the immediate effect of violence was compounded by responses of New South Wales's police force, and from some of it's members who were in different ne-negligent, dismissive, or hostile towards us. Um, and His Honour went on to say that he is hopeful that his comments and recommendations will be endorsed and acted upon so that he and the public of New South Wales can feel confident in returning these cases to their attention. And you'll see why he made these comments as I move through this... session. There were 32 deaths that were reviewed by the Commission of Inquiry, and 25 of those were determined to be deaths resulting from bias, and this Inquiry followed an internal inquiry by the New South Wales Police Force called Strike Force Parrabell, and made various criticisms of the Parrabell investigation and report, and I don't want to get into that too much now but Strike Force Parrabell formed the basis for the review, the commissioners's review among other things.

And one of the primary findings of Justice Sackar was that the Biased Crimes Indicator Review Form which was used by Strike Force Parrabell, that is by the police officers who were conducting a review of LGBT hate crimes the- in the past, was just not an appropriate document to be used, and and in my research this kind of hate crime review is very structured, very... hard in how it looks at crimes, it doesn't look for nuance, it doesn't allow for subjective features, it's an FBI tool, which was just completely inappropriate for a review of LGBT hate crimes. And His Honour Justice Sackar said that there was a significant degree of collaboration between the Parrabell team and academics who were engaged to review the findings of police, but that resulted in an academic review that was not conducted at arms length or in a manner which inspires confidence in its rigour and independence. In other words, Parrabell was put forward as 'this is what happened', but really it didn't have the features of a Judicial Commission of Inquiry which is why we push for that so so hard.

Now this is, just some technical aspects, Royal Commissions and Special Commissions of Inquiry are often talked about in our- in our society, you know you talk to any minority group who's been affected by some kind of injustice, and you'll hear them talk about 'we need a Royal Commission'. Look I wanted a Royal Commission as well for LGBT hate crimes, but really in terms of their differences, Royal commissions and Special Commission Inquiry aren't that different. I probably suggest that a Royal Commission should have far-reaching terms of reference and it might be appropriate that a Royal Commission- say- is created at the Commonwealth level to look at LGBT hate crimes historically across all states and charities because it's not just New South Wales that was affected by this dark, dark history. Royal Commission- uh the Royal Commission Act of New South Wales and there's a Federal Act as well allows for witnesses to be summoned, and documents to be interrogated and requested. Warrants can also be issued, and people generally cannot refuse to give evidence in a Royal Commission, but at the same time, the rules allow for protection from self-incrimination, for example. Special Commissions of Inquiry, um.. mirror Royal Commissions. So far as I'm concerned and in relation to this inquiry, the only difference really, apart from the optics and the funding, is this limitation as to evidence because in a Special Commission of Inquiry, generally speaking, only evidence that can be emitted in a criminal or civil court, um, can end up in a final report of a commissioner. In other words, he is saying evidence or evidence that's not considered relevant, that hasn't passed through the or jumped through the hurdles within the Evidence Act. That is the main difference, in a Royal Commission there's a wide scope for evidence and the Rules of Evidence don't necessarily limit what can go into a Royal Commission, whereas generally speaking, Section 9 in the Special Commissions of Inquiry Act in New South Wales has a limit in terms of what evidence can find its way into a report.

Now, this Special Commission of Inquiry into LGBTQ murders, came about because we just had two Parliamentary Inquiries and those Inquiries were slowly uncovering this mess, um, that is.. men being targeted by groups for killings and bashings, trans people being targeted for the same, and a response of the New South Wales Police Force or government agencies that probably was not what was expected from the community. And so these are the terms of reference for the inquiry and they were sufficiently broad to allow His Honour to really delve into a lot of the issues although I'd suggest that perhaps a role commission with even broader terms of reference might, um, you know, have achieved a lot more in terms of looking at why people held certain prejudices or the impact of the Grim Reaper Campaign and there's a lot that we can go into, but at the same time this Special Commission Inquiry really had a lot of resources and went for a long time and extended its reporting date twice, because of the volume of documents that it was considering. Now you'll remember that I talked about Ross Warren, John Russell, and Gilles Mattaini and the reason I brought them together is because they were the subject of Operation Taradale and the image there I've got is of a police officer, Steven Page, who was working at Rose Bay Police Station one day and uncovered a bunch of old files and in one of those files he found letters from K Warren, that is Ross Warren's mother, and he looked at these letters and realised that no one had responded to them. And remember I said that K was writing to the Commissioner saying "I need to final-finalise my son's affairs and I want some answers". Anyway Steve, um, who's a member of the heterosexual community, thought you know what I'm going to look more into this and he, um, conducted his own investigation and received, um, warrants and all kinds of things to target certain suspects. And he then ultimately was able to petition the coroner to conduct an inquest, and Jacqueline Milledge who I mentioned before, determined that the death of both Mr Warren and Mr Russell were homicides and that the events supported the probability that they both met their deaths at the hands of gay hate assailants, and that there was a strong possibility that Gilles Mattaini had died in similar circumstances to the other two men.

This is also really important because out of the Special Commission of Inquiry it was revealed, um, that the New South Wales Police Force, after seeing the recommendations of Jacqueline Milledge and bearing the branch of her criticism about that their conduct in the investigations and perhaps their prejudices when it came to investigating the deaths of those three men, unknown to anyone, set up their own Strike Force to effectively seek to overturn the Coronial Findings um and this came out in the Special Commission of Inquiry. And I would suggest that without that Special Commission of Inquiry we would never know about this, and it's a really sad indictment on our justice system that a Coroner of such learned experience, who has presided over an inquest involving the deaths of three men, hearing all the facts and taking all the evidence and making findings according to law, can somehow be trumped by a Strike Force which is set up internally in the New South Wales Police Force, um looking to rebut the Operation Taradale findings. So it was a really sad day I think for the LGBT community to see that, and I think Commissioner Karen Webb within the police force is very aware of Justice Sackar's criticisms of this Strike Force, because it's embarrassing and it did nothing to assist with relations with the LGBT community, and there is simply no evidence that those men committed suicide or met with misadventure. There's evidence to the contrary actually.

These are the words of Justice Sackar in relation to Operation Taradale and Neiwand, and he says that "Strike Force Neiwand was highly critical of Operation Taradale and its Commander Ste- Detective Steven Page who I mentioned earlier and proposed findings as to manner and cause of the three deaths which were radically different from the findings of Deputy State Coroner Milledge." And what was probably most concerning is that none of Mr Page or the families of victims were notified that this Strike Force was being created, and His Honour found that ultimately it was a secretive and inadequate attempt to avoid or negate the consequences of Taradale inquest and findings, including the mounting of an unjustified attack of Mr Page. Steven Page was a really hardworking good cop and has worked with me and others in the LGBT community to bring about the Special Commission for Inquiry, and he's appeared on ABC 73. This man's reputation was absolutely destroyed by Strike Force Neiwand and Mr Page deserves an apology.

Chrispin Dye is another victim of hate crimes and the reason why I've highlighted his case is because new evidence was discovered as part of the Special Commission of inquiry which identified the likely perpetrator of Chrispin's murder. Chrispin was the manager of ACDC and was well-known in music circles in the inner city. On the night of his death, he was seen to be in a bar talking to, what witnesses described as an a feminite male... and unfortunately he suffered. He was coward punched or he was beaten up, effectively, at the back of the nightclub in 1993, and witnesses said they just they saw three men standing around his body, picking him up and moving him around. Police attended and discovered his wallet was missing and he was found alive, but he died the scene from cardiac arrest, having effectively received a concussion and bleeding in the brain. There were multiple strike forces set up to look into Chrispin's death, but there were just some leads that weren't followed, and as you'll find out mistakes were made. Back in 2005, there were recommendations from the unsolved homicide team in the New South Wales Police Force and I would endorse these recommendations and they were to investigating officers to basically locate exhibits and conduct forensic testing, confirm prints, you know the kind of things that we expect of detectives. But none of these recommendations were followed, nothing was done, and Chrispin's death remained unsolved. The key issues that came out of the inquiry were that his keys were not examined for fingerprints, his clothing had never been sent for forensic analysis by police, and we accept that back in 1993, DNA technology was not what it is today. But in 2005, it was probably beginning to look okay, and those recommendations that were from the unsolved homicide team could have been acted upon but weren't. So, you know, for a period of 30 years these exhibits were not examined or touched, so the legal team at the Special Commission of Inquiry who, you know, I'm just so proud to be part of a legal profession which is first class, because the team who were working in in the Special Commission of Inquiry really went above and beyond for the LGBT community. And this is one example because they sent Chrispin Dye's genes for testing, just as part of their own review of this investigation. And, they also sent a note that was found in Chrispin's top pocket which had blood stains on it and a phone number, and that note had never been picked up by investigating officers. The note and the blood match on the jeans matched a person of interest, and that person was identified during the inquiry just last year, but he died in 2002. So that person got to live his life, you know, without facing justice and you know it's sad, it's really sad that he chose to die in 2002 and I think that's sad too, but he also never faced the justice system for this crime and we lost a member of the LGBT community to a murder.

How are we going for timing Crystal?

Crystal: Great, uh, just under 10 minutes to go.

Nicholas: Cool, all right. Um.. so having talked about all of that, and I have sped through it because there is so much to cover there, but there's a lot that needs to be done in New South Wales, and you know the- there are a lot of public discussions right now about where the LGBT community sits in our society: our vulnerability, whether police should participate in Mardi Gras, whether police have done enough in relation to the murder of the two young men last week. And I think there's answers in the affirmative and in the negative when it comes to all of those issues and I'll leave it to individuals to form their own views. But what I might say is that at the very least, we need our jurisdiction to deal with recommendations of this Special Commission Inquiry in a way that have has a meaningful effect, that is.. the New South Wales Police Force should be funded appropriately to reinvestigate and, you know, do a job that is expected of them in relation to these cold cases. And we don't want to take away from other cold cases, because we recognise that of course there are cold cases across New South Wales and families and friends and victims who want justice. The LGBT community does not want to be blamed for consuming resources and that was an issue that came up in the Special Commission of Inquiry. So what I'm saying is that, you know, funding needs to be attributed to the New South Wales Police Force to specifically look at this group of murders, and look to solve those murders. And the only way that that can be done is if a specialist task force is set up, that those officers receive training in the life and the culture of the LGBT community. Maybe though they are even representative of the LGBT community and they have sufficient support to do that. The other thing is that during the the inquiry, the New South Wales First Police Force- approached the Inquiry adversarily it did, it was really defensive and made all kinds of applications, and sought more time to produce documents, and suggested that the inquiry was taking homicide officers away from investigating murders, and that kind of thing. So I think the other thing is that probably- the police force needs to apologise for that, because that Commission of Inquiry was set up in good faith. It was not set up to punish the police force, it was there to find answers and help the LGBT community heal. So it was really disappointing that various lawyers for the police force made all kinds of comments like the one I just mentioned, and I would really like the Commissioner to talk about that a bit more and address what happened during that Inquiry. And then the other thing is that New South Wales needs an LGBT Council. We need an advisory panel to government to help make laws, that make the society safer for us, and I would endorse Alex [inaudible]'s equality bill which is currently before Parliament now. That law is seeking to amend a raft of laws across New South Wales which impact the LGBT community, and the objective there is to make us safer when it comes to discrimination, and how we're treated in the workplace, and how we're treated in schools, how we receive medical services, how we engage with police, these are all these matters that have to be addressed, because we are not a safe community.

So to do that, if you want to get involved in that, there are a few ways you can do that. The first is contact, connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a message because I'd love to hear from you, and maybe you've got some ideas for how we can do that. And then the second thing is that through the subscription to this seminar tonight, my firm can send out a template letter, which we would encourage you to sign and send to the premier, which calls on the government to do the things that I've just talked about in terms of resourcing the police and getting justice for our community. So.. I might now hand over to Chloe, who's one of our Brennan Program Coordinators and also a student at UTS, and she's going to open up this session to a Q&A, because I'm sure there's lots of questions.

Chloe: Just before we get to the Q&A, we also have present tonight: Emily Kimman, an alumni of UTS, and a previous Dowson Turco volunteer through the Brennan Program. So we'd love to hear her experience with this topic if she's on the call.

Emily: Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? Chloe: We can- we can. Emily: Oh, great! Yeah so, I can't remember what year I did it in, because I've been out of uni for like 18 months now, but I assisted Nick drafting a statement for one of the parliamentary inquiries. It was great, like, it was difficult, don't get me wrong, but like the experience was really amazing and it was really helpful for me. Like, I think it was one of the more sort of practical volunteering tasks I sort of- got to partake in, and I- I got to be face to face with... like I- I would say like a client, but she was a client of Nick's but sort of I would say a victim at the same time. So, um, it was an incredible learning experience for me, like as a student, um so yeah.

Nicholas: [distorted, inaudible speaking].

Chloe: Sorry could you repeat that Nick? it was a bit echoey. Nicholas: Cool can you hear me okay now? Cool. I'll just say that Emily's role was effectively to take evidence from a hate- from a victim of a hate crime, and take a history from her in really challenging circumstances. You know, hate crimes can take all forms, not just murders but there can be sexual violence and robberies and bashings and intimidation. And it was that particular matter that was very confronting in all of its facts, and the client is very damaged from her experience. And really I think, you know, Emily you delved into it head-on and did justice to it in terms of making sure that you were comfortable with- with the content, and drafting a statement in a way that the client felt like she was being heard, so she was telling her story in that cathartic process of giving evidence, but also prepared her statement in a way that meant that it was acceptable evidence for the court or for the inquiry. So just to give everyone a bit of an idea was a really, really good job and UTS produces, you know, great students, because I didn't really have to do too much there and it saved- so it saved me a bit because I'm trying to run a practice and our pro bono team is always really busy, and it's great to have the support of proficient and highly schooled students like Emily, so thanks Emily.

Emily: No it was an absolute pleasure to be involved, and even though the content was quite harrowing I was just so grateful for the client's time and her openness and.. her like- yeah just her openness with me because she- she didn't know me, she didn't know who I was, and it was a pleasure to be able to make her feel comfortable and to be able to give her some avenue to feel like she was getting some sort of relief.

Chloe: Thanks so much Emily, that's very insightful. We'd like to open the floor now to all of the audience members, so if there are any questions feel free to raise your hand or pop your question in the chat. We have a few questions in the chat already, um,  [reading] "So I know this has already been touched on a bit but what can we do, like specifically, to advocate for a National Commission of Inquiry?"

Nicholas: Sure, um, look it's a- it's a tough conversation to be had because I don't think this issue is on the federal kind of agenda. There is, you know, a council of state governments, ministers who meet with the Prime Minister, um, in National Cabinet- so to speak- but I'm pretty sure this is not on the agenda, and I'm aware of, you know, I'm trying to assist some people in South Australia to get a similar inquiry going, and [inaudible] is also in need of that kind of inquiry. Um.. maybe the answer is a Federal Royal Commission, um, but at the same time if you've got recommendations from a Royal Commission of that nature, all of those recommendations are going to flow into the states and it will be up to different states to ratify recommendations as they see fit. Whereas when you've got Federal Royal Commissions that deal with Commonwealth issues or Commonwealth legislation, it's easier to have a consistent set of recommendations and practical effects. So I think there are some issues with it. I'm not saying we don't do it, I'm just saying.. how we do it and when we do it is an issue. Maybe we need South Australia and Victoria to kind of have their own form of inquiries, maybe just parliamentary inquiries, before we go down that route. I think it is- it's a national conversation to be had definitely, but in the same vein I think a First Nations Royal Commission is also a national conversation. [Pause]

Chloe: Excellent, another question from the chat: [Reading] "Is bias being a factor in 25 deaths referring to the biases- biases and prejudices of the suspected murderers when deciding to murder, or is it a finding that law enforcement acted with bias?"

Nicholas: Sure. It's a finding that the people who committed the crimes were affected by bias, but there's also in some cases elements of bias, on the part of investigating officers. It's really hard to- it's really hard to prove retrospectively how the prejudices or feelings or views that a particular officer might have had at at a particular time. It's really hard, you can kind of look at the actions they took or didn't take, but that can also be put down to negligence. For example, the hair that went missing in John Russell's case. I wouldn't suggest that that is because of some kind of prejudice towards the LGBT community. I think it's just.. negligence and, you know, what came out of that inquiry, which I think is really important for all of government is the handling of sensitive information. So, you know, and I don't envy the New South Wales Police Force you can just imagine the warehouses that store exhibits and over decades, how they're managed and how they're accessed and the temperature that's.. monitored or used to maintain records that don't become destroyed or damaged. You know, all of those factors have to play into that, but I think in this- in this inquiry, it was really evident that the exhibit management system is not up to standard, you know, it's a very busy- we have one of the biggest police forces in the world, so there's a lot of police work going on and systems need to get better. [Pause]

Chloe: Um.. the next question is sorry [Reading] "Did the inquiry look at instances where it has been alleged that the police themselves were the perpetrators of violence or murder in Sydney in the '80s and '90s?"

Nicholas: Well, that's a really good question. It didn't, there- there is one case, which was not a murder case, um, was a bashing case and that's the case of Alan Rosendale. I act for Alan and he was bashed in 1989 and there's a theme here right, that 1989 was a big year, um, but these murders happened all through the '80s, '90s and early 2000s, but the 19 late '80s, early '90s was really quite big. And Alan was at a- a beach, which is a place where gay men used to go, well I think they still exist, but where gay men would go to have sex and a car pulled up, and out of the car jumped four or five men and they popped the boot, and they grabbed what Alan thought were pieces of wood but we suspect were police batons. A third party identified that police car and the registration number and reported to police, and he says that police confirmed that that was a New South Wales police vehicle. Um, what police say is that the people in that car were actually involved in another incident. It wasn't Alan, it was another thing, that's what they say- the third party witness- but from Alan's perspective and this third party witness, who was on our side, it was a New South Wales police vehicle. There were police officers in that car and they bashed Alan to a point of unconsciousness, um, where he ended up in the hospital. [Pause]

Anthea: I have a question Chloe, so I'll jump in, um thanks. I was wondering, Nicholas, I know you were really involved in the advocacy and campaign to bring about the Special Commission of Inquiry and I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about that process, and what actions that involved, and what kind of advocacy was effective, and I guess the tipping point or like what- what led to the precipitation of the inquiry itself being held.

Nicholas: Sure, look I think the the advocacy was born out of Alan Rosendale case, because I had this client who was bashed in the '80s, who discovered that- the car that carried his assailant was a police car and he was saying to me "What do I do about this?". And so we wrote to the commissioner of police and we wrote to the [inaudible] and we had a review of the investigation but we were hitting dead ends. And so then meant, well you know, what this is only one of many issues, and it was already, you know, there were already grumblings in the community for many years that we needed truth and justice when it came to perpetrators of violence against us, um, and so I just kind of took it upon myself to go and meet with members of parliament, um, and from across the crossbench, you know. I think, you know, it was a really slow campaign it was- there was no structure to it. Really it was just like when I had time, I would line up meetings with members of parliament, usually on the back bench, and convince them of their need for some kind of inquiry. And there were others in the community who were doing the same thing sometimes with me or sometimes independently. And sometimes we all got together and discussed things and held events in the community to raise awareness about the campaign, um, and ultimately it was letters jointly written by myself and the CEO of ACON New South Wales Nicholas ???? to the government, to force the Parliamentary Inquiry, and the second Parliamentary Inquiry because we weren't happy with the first, and then really push for a Judicial Commission of Inquiry.

And I might just say on that note, Penny Sharp, who's the current Minister for the Environment, was instrumental in helping us get those parliamentary inquiries and a Judicial Commission Inquiry. Amongst other members of parliment, Shane Mallard is another one Don Howard is another one, um, but Penny Sharp has just been so incredible  and so I just want to acknowledge her. [Pause]

Chloe: Um, sorry, just scrolling through the chat, um; [Reading] "Although the inquiry only looked at matters up to 2010 do you suspect similar findings would have been found in alleged incidents that happened post 2010. Um, for example, the bashing of revelers at Mardi Gras leading to the Accord being developed in 2013".

Nicholas: Yeah a really good question, and that's probably why we need a more far-reaching inquiry because a lot of these, you know, the violence perpetrated against our community is ongoing.. and right now I would say it's the trans community that is most vulnerable. They're the ones who are unfortunately targeted for hate speech and violence and killing, um, so yes, we need- I think a review of the '78 Mardi Gras and how police responded, the criminalization of homosexuality, you know, like why was it- why were we criminalized? I think these are big questions we need to look at.

Chloe: So, yeah, just taking note of the time I think we have time for one more question.. um so the final question: [Reading] "Do you believe given that the Royal Commission's recommendations are only partly- if even that- implemented, that this will influence change in the treatment of the LGBTQI in the criminal justice system? What do you hope comes out of this?"

Nicholas: Yeah, good question. It's a Special Commission, not a Royal Commission, but I get what you what you're asking. Look, I think we're already seeing change, to be honest, I think the recommendations are so comprehensive from this Special Commission of Inquiry, and because of the nature of our justice system, it's open... everyone could see what was going on. It was reported on a lot, you know, we're already seeing change. Is that change going to be meaningful? I think that's still to be seen but, you know, I'm an optimist and I- I think we can only just move in one direction when it comes to these things, and we just need the support of everyone. It can't just be the LGBT community that's pushing for this, we need the support of our heterosexual friends and family members, because your voice is bigger. [Pause]

Chloe: Excellent, all right thanks so much Nicholas, um, so just on behalf of the UTS Faculty of Law and the UTS Law Students Society, I extend our deepest gratitude to you Nicholas Stuart, um for generously sharing your expertise this evening on the important topic of the Special Commission of Inquiry into LGBTQI hate crimes. Your insights have not only enlightened us but have also inspired us to advocate for meaningful change as future legal professionals. We have been so fortunate to have heard your insights into such a topical issue, and as future lawyers I know I speak on behalf of all attendees when I say that tonight's presentation has informed us on areas where change has occurred, um and what still needs to be addressed. You have certainly inspired us all to contribute to meaningful change as we enter the legal profession. Thank you for all you have done in spearheading these changes as well as sharing your knowledge with us tonight. I would also like to thank Crystal, Anthea, Jane Wangmann, Sivaan, Georgia, together with the entirety of the Brennan and Social Justice team for helping administrate tonight's ad- presentation. To all of our attendees, your participation is invaluable, and we hope that tonight's discussion will serve as a catalyst for further engagement and reflection. A reminder that you will all receive five ROJ points for attending this evening's event. We would also like to encourage all of you here today to engage with this topic through further reading, which you can reflect upon for ROJ points by submitting 350 words to Career Hub. Finally, keep an eye out for announcements regarding upcoming Autumn Brennan discussion groups, and the next Justice talk which will be in early May, um, and will focus on social justice lawyering and career paths. Once again, thank you Nicholas for your unwavering support and dedication to advancing social justice within the legal profession, and thank you everyone for attending tonight.