Master of Laws & Graduate Certificate in Laws info session

Maxine Evers (00:10):

Hello, everyone. Let's commence our webinar. Thank you very much for joining us. I'm Maxine Evers and I'm the Associate Dean for Education in the law faculty at UTS. And I have both the pleasure and the privilege of working with my academic and professional colleagues in designing and delivering our academic programs, including the Master of Laws and the Graduate Certificate in Laws that we are going to focus on this evening.

            So, thank you for your time, and I hope that this evening's webinar will be of value to you. The webinar will have some information for you. It will have our guest speaker, one of our graduates, Sarah Romanous, and then we'll have the opportunity for you to ask some questions. But as we usually do, as a matter of practice here at the University of Technology, we would like to acknowledge country. And here I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation upon whose ancestral lands our city campus stands.

            I also pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and I acknowledge them as the traditional custodians of knowledge for this land that was never seated. So, thank you again for joining us tonight to go through what we consider to be the really important points to help you in your decision making about further study. So, as you will see in the chat, we have a Q&A box, so not the chat box, but a Q&A box for you to ask your questions. We may ask some of those questions at the end of the evening, or my colleagues can answer some of them as you pop them in the chat box. And please, if you have any questions about what it's like to be a commercial lawyer, include those in the Q&A, and we can ask Sarah those at the end of the webinar.

            So, our Master of Laws and Graduate Certificate are our postgraduate programs. Just to let you know, this session is being recorded. There will be no identification of any participants. It will also be available for you to have access to if you would like to go over any of the information this evening. So, the Masters and the Graduate Certificate are part of our postgraduate suite of programs. And the Masters has been designed at two levels for two purposes, and then the Graduate Certificate sits under the Master of Laws.

            So, the LLM, as it's referred to, is to enable law lawyers, law graduates, legal professionals to either broaden their skills in areas, or to deepen and specialize their skill in areas. So, the way our masters is designed, and we'll see that as we go through this webinar, you can either specialize in particular practice areas, or you can do a general masters and choose from a suite of electives. If there is anybody here in the webinar that is a current UTS student, particularly a JD student, you will be aware of the electives that we have across our postgraduate program, and they're the electives that are available to our Masters of Law students as well.

            If you're not sure about committing, or you would like a shorter course with less subjects, but you still want to specialize, you can do specific subjects in the Graduate Certificate in Laws. So, you have that opportunity to do a longer study or a shorter study. And certainly if you commence in the Graduate Certificate in Laws and you wish to then move into the Masters of Laws, you can also do that as well. Thank you.

            The information that you can see on the slide now is really our opportunity to let you know that we are a very well recognized university. As I said, some of you may be attending UTS at the moment in the law faculty, who will be returning to think about post-graduate study after several years of working, or you may have friends or family that have studied at UTS. So, hopefully you know a little bit about our background and our reputation as a very practice based university. But as you can see, our reputation has really accelerated in the last couple of years in terms of our ranking for a young university. The number one ranking in Australia and under the top in the top 50 worldwide as a young university.

            That's something that we are particularly proud of, but it's something that really has taken a lot of planning and a lot of thought. And that's down to the level of subjects, to courses, to faculties across the university. Our reputation comes from our teaching and learning, as you can see where we are ranked in Australia as a law faculty, and many of the faculties of law that rank ahead of us are those traditional law faculties that are referred to as a sandstone faculty. So, we've done extremely well to be positioned where we are, that draws on our teaching and learning, but it also draws on our research and the student experience. Next slide, thank you.

            So, here's a little bit more information, some detail around, firstly, the Graduate Certificate and then secondly, the Master of Laws. So, as I've said at the outset, both these courses, and the Graduate Certificate sits under the Masters, are for law graduates. We do have a course for non-law graduates and new Masters of International Commercial and Business Law that there'll be a webinar about next week. But this course is being designed as a higher level course for law graduates and for lawyers. So, the graduate certificate is the shorter of the two courses, and as you can see from the slide, it can be completed in six months full-time.

            So, that's studying four subjects. Or it can be done in one year part-time. And one of the strengths I'll talk about a little bit further in the webinar is the flexibility of our courses at UTS. So, when we say six months full-time, or a year part-time, there is always the ability to extend that. In actual fact, we have a very, I think, mature approach to study, particularly for postgraduate students, because we do get the post-graduate students are extremely busy and occupied with work, with family, with other obligations. Opportunities to move away, opportunities to take a break from study, et cetera.

            So, we take the view provided you are progressing in your study, we will not say after the time of the part-time progression, "You haven't finished, so that's the end." We also have the ability in our study for you to take a leave of absence. So, we are very flexible. So, our Grad Cert is made up of four subjects, each worth six credit points each. So, it's a 24 credit point course. And within the Graduate Certificate, it is completely flexible as to the subjects that you undertake. So, you can see there on the screen the range of electives that we have. So, we have very skills based electives, such as negotiation and dispute resolution.

            We have electives with an international focus. We have electives that include what we call experiential learning, which is doing an internship, or doing very practice based assessments within that subject. When we talk a little bit more about some of the subjects in the Masters, you'll get some good examples of those electives you can also undertake in the Grad Cert. So, our masters is our next course that we have on offer in the postgraduate space, and that's twice the length of the Graduate Certificate that also has a flexible progression. You can undertake it one year full-time, or two years part-time.

            And again, as I said, we are very flexible if you need to take leave, if you want to drop down to doing one subject, if you want to do three subjects, we don't have particular study modes that you'll have to seek permission to change a number of subjects that you'll undertake in a session. And we are very lucky here at UTS that we have the three sessions to provide more flexibility, particularly for our post grad students. So, when I spoke earlier about really the objective of a Masters is either to broaden or to deepen your knowledge and skills in the law, this is how we have designed it here and the law faculty at UTS.

            So, we have three majors that you can specialize in. You can see those there on the slide, Corporate and Commercial, Dispute Resolution and Legal Practice, and finally Intellectual Property. You can do one major or two majors. So, each major makes up half of the masters, 24 credit points. So, you can do the two majors out of the three. Or you can do a general masters. You don't have to do a major, you can choose from many of the subjects that I put up on the earlier slide in relation to the Graduate Certificate, or you can do one major and then do general electives. So, there is a lot of choice around what your learning needs are, what your career goals are, what you really want to get out of the Masters. So, you can pretty well design the masters to suit your needs and your interests. Next slide, thank you.

            The next couple of slides are going to highlight some of my colleagues, academics that work in the post-graduate program, just to give you an idea of how we bring in, as I mentioned earlier, our reputation in research, our reputation in practice based teaching and learning. So, one of my colleagues here, Honni Van Rijswijk takes the subject International Commercial Transactions. So, as the subject name indicates, it has a global focus and a commercial focus. And you can see the description of the really objectives that you would complete if you undertook International Commercial Transactions, as well as seeing Honni's specialization in terms of her research and her study.

            So, Honni has been with us for many years, and she teaches across both our postgraduate and undergraduate program, but this is one of her specialties. So, it's a subject that you can do on its own, or you can do within the Corporate and Commercial Law major. Another subject that you can also do in the Commercial and Corporate Law major, or as a standalone subject is Business and Law in China, an area of both practice and experience and understanding that we know is so important as we are working, many of us, in the area of Asia and having connections and opportunities to work overseas.

            So, Business and Law in China is taught by my colleague, Associate Professor Colin Hawes. You can see with Colin's experience, both in practice and in study and in academia, that he has really an international background. This is one of Colin's areas of research as well as teaching. Colin also teaches into our LLB and our JD in our Commercial Corporate Law area, so this is really his focus and he has a wealth of very much hands on, research driven experience in the postgraduate program in particular, particularly about business and judicial decision making in China.

            And then finally, another one of our electives that you'll have within the LLM is the Law of Slavery and Human Trafficking. Again, a subject that is very much at the cutting edge of practice of corporate responsibility, of really community awareness about modern slavery. Professor Jennifer Burn, and again you can see her qualifications is the Director of Anti-Slavery Australia. It's home is here in the law faculty, and Jennifer has been one of the leading, if not the leading advocates for law reform in this area.

            She served as the first interim anti-slavery commissioner in New South Wales. And with her team, she has been really a strong advocate for law reform in this area. She is highly sought after both in private areas and in government for her experience in the area. And it's a subject that students really enjoy, and we get really great feedback because Jennifer has a wealth of experience. So, that's just a couple of the electives that you can choose within the Grad Cert and the Masters.

            I'll then move on to our next slide. And this is my opportunity to welcome back virtually, our Sarah Romanous. Sarah is a twice graduate from the law degree and the Masters of Law at UTS. Sarah is a Senior Associate with HWL Ebsworth lawyers, a very established national firm here in Australia. And I'm going to invite Sarah to speak to you about her study, her decision making around her study, and how that study has impacted on her work. So, over to you, thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Romanous (15:05):

Thanks Maxine. Hopefully everyone can hear me. Thank you for the warm welcome. It's great to be back speaking to UTS family basically. As Maxine said, I did my undergraduate degree at UTS and then came back about four years later to do my Masters. And it was a really fantastic experience. I think it was a really worthwhile experience. I made the decision to return to do further study, because I was starting to practice in an area of law that I hadn't worked in previously and I also had not had an introduction to as part of my LLB, and that was intellectual property law, mostly commercialization of intellectual property.

            So, licenses and transactions in the procurement process, especially ICT procurement. And then I also assisted on a few other matters regarding copyright and trademarks. I loved my experience at UTS as an undergraduate, and decided that it was my first choice basically to come back and study my Masters. And it worked really well for me, because the course was really flexible in terms of attendance. So, there were online options and also before COVID, there were in person options as well. And the faculty was really well set up for that, especially in the intellectual property major, all of those subjects were already very much ready for online learning.

            So, that was very seamless transition in a pretty unsettling time, I would say, for most people. Studying my Masters gave me the really strong knowledge base and foundation in intellectual property law that I felt that I needed. There's always on the job learning, but I'm someone who really likes to have that quite strong foundation of knowledge before I apply that knowledge to the workplace, for the benefit of my clients. So, I felt a lot more confident and comfortable practicing in that area after I went back and did my course. And even while I was studying, I felt the immediate benefits of that knowledge. So, Maxine, is there anything else you want me to cover?

Maxine Evers (17:38):

Sarah, there are some questions in the Q&A that will come to at the end if that's okay.

Sarah Romanous (17:42):

Sure.

Maxine Evers (17:42):

So, that really leads very nicely to the next slide and information. So, thank you very much, Sarah.

Sarah Romanous (17:50):

No problem.

Maxine Evers (17:50):

So, as Sarah has talked about our very practical and flexible learning, and that builds on our distinctiveness. Our innovative programs, we are not tied by the tradition of other law schools, and we can also take up that innovation that a young university has. We have a very open approach, as I used the word before, a very experiential approach to the design of our subjects. Those very much practice based assessments that build the confidence that Sarah spoke about, so that when you are in the workplace, you have the knowledge and the skills and the ability to apply that knowledge and skills to real world learning.

            So, as I mentioned earlier, if you are a studying law with us here at UTS, or if you have family or friends or work colleagues that have studies at UTS, they would've told you if they're speaking about their experience, that it is that very much based on the profession and based on the real world learning and challenges. And how we achieve that is very much away from that traditional very heavy approach to law. We don't have 100% exams. We haven't had 100% exams for a long time, particularly in the postgraduate space, because we really want to make it, what we talk about in teaching terms, and authentic learning experience for our students.

            We know postgrad students are different to undergrad students, have different interests and different needs, and we plan to cater for those. One of our strengths, and part of that is I think people like Sarah coming back and teaching in the faculty, our location being close to the city. We have a great blend, a team of at academics and practitioners that come together to teach you. So, some of the electives that you saw in an earlier slide will be taught by practicing lawyers, solicitors, or barristers, or in-house council that are specialist in that field.

            For example, we have a great casual academic that teaches our dispute resolution and negotiation subjects. He's a mediator, he's a negotiator, and so that subject is delivered in block mode. It was delivered online during COVID, and that's very much a skills based subject. In our IP subjects, we have practitioners that are working in IP, Sarah has said she's does herself, that come in and also teach with academics who research into IP. So, we bring together those two strengths.

            We also have, as I've already mentioned, a very flexible program, so you can move from part-time to full-time. You don't have to lock yourself in. And there's a way that you can get advice about how your progression can be mapped out. And I've also mentioned, and that's commencing as in summer, you can commence and continue to undertake your subjects in our three sessions, our autumn session, our spring session, that we're currently in at the moment, and our summer session, which commences on the 6th of December. We're not expecting postgrad students to study in every session, but it does give you that flexibility. Some of our post grads find doing summer is good. It seems to be a little bit more relaxed.

            People seem to have a little bit more time in from their work, et cetera. So, to do one subject in summer really does, I think, assist you with your planning. Next slide, please. And of course, being a postgrad student, you do have that ability in class to network with other students. I think that's one of the strengths in the way we design our assessments. We have collaborative assessments. We have assessments where students are working on projects. And so you do have that opportunity to learn that is enriched by the learning from your peers, as well as the learning from your teachers, whether they be practitioners or academics.

            You also have the ability in both the Grad Cert and the Masters, but particularly in the Masters, because you have more room in that course, to undertake a research subject. So, if research is an area that you are interested in, you really want to specialize in a particular issue or question within a practice area, then you can undertake the research project, which is really you working on your own under the supervision of an academic who will guide you in the development of, and the end of drafting a significant piece of work that can really evidence those research skills, those skills that are particularly important in certain areas of legal practice, or practice outside of the law that's undertaken by legal professionals.

            This slide sets out some of the support that we have at UTS, both in the law faculty and in the university. And this support is for all students, undergrad students, postgrad students, online students, on campus students. But I think it's important to highlight that they are services that not only does everyone access, but are also designed or nuanced to where you are in your study. So, my colleague, Professor Tracey Booth is our Director of Students. That's a position in the faculty, and Tracey's role is to work with students to help them in relation to their study. So, as I mentioned earlier, if you wanted to really think about what rate or how many subjects you'll do, or how long should you take, Tracey can assist with that.

            If you start studying in a semester and something happens, and we know that that happens, particularly with post-grad students and other demands, then Tracey can assist you if you need to withdraw from a subject, if you need to apply to discontinue a subject, if you need to take leave of absence. So, Tracey is really the face of the faculty between the faculty and students. I think we are very lucky to have that role, not all law faculties do. From the university's perspective, we have services for students. So, UTS helps higher education learning and presentation, language and presentation support is very useful if you haven't studied for a while.

            So, you've got a law degree, practicing the law, or you are working in another field and it's been a couple of years since you came back to study. That was certainly my case when I came to UTS and I was working as a casual academic, and I undertook the Masters of Dispute Resolution. I won't tell you how long it had been between my undergrad study and my postgraduate study, but it had been a significant time. And so services like UTS Helps really about capacity building and confidence building. You can either attend workshops or one-on-one sessions with the experts in Helps to make sure that you are on the right track in coming back to study and in coming to post-graduate study so they can help with mapping out your essay or problem questions, for example.

            They can help with tips and skills around presentation. There's a lot of resources on the website. I invite you to go and have a look at the UTS Helps website, but also I think the real benefit is that they have the one-on-one consultations, which are taking place online at the moment. But when we're back on campus, you can make an appointment to meet with one of the consultants there, and they will give you that one-on-one assistance. Similarly, across the university, if you are undertaking a post-graduate study because you are thinking about a change in careers, or a change in direction within a career, then our Career Service is also a fantastic service for students.

            Similar to Helps, there are different ways you can access Careers. There's information available for students online, there's also opportunities to meet with Careers consultants. Again, some skills based work around interview, CV writing, et cetera, but we are very lucky that we have consultants within the Career Service that specialize in post-graduate study. And we have a very good relationship with the law designated careers consultants that can work with you, as well as many opportunities that are advertised through Career Service around positions, but also around a professional mentoring program that the Career Service runs. So, they can connect you up with people in the profession or the industry to be mentored, and that's an online mentoring program.

            And then for students that need adjustments in their study, whether that's through having a health reason, through being a carer, through having a disability, our Accessibility Services will work with you and your teachers and we have a faculty and academic liaison officer, which works with Accessibility Services. A little bit like a director of students for students that come under Accessibility Services. So, if you need adjustments to your assessments, your case worker at Accessibility Services, as I said, will work with the academic liaison officer in the faculty and with your subject coordinators to ensure that we have accommodated those.

            So, it's a very easy service to access. I'm now going to give you what I think are other important points in your decision making about what makes UTS distinctive. We have a beautiful building, which I think does make us distinctive, and you can see there's a photo of the building just on Paramatta Road up towards Broadway. We moved into the building two years ago, and of course we went then into lockdown. So, we haven't had a lot of opportunity for our students and even for our staff to be in the building. It's on campus, on the main campus, we used to be in Haymarket, which was a great location as well, but we really are thriving now that we're on the main campus.

            We're also very lucky to share this building with the library. And of course, law and library go very well together, and we have law librarians that work with students. And again, at whole different levels, online resources, space in the library, it's a beautiful space, working one-on-one with the librarians, et cetera. So, we're very well located there and very well supported. Attached to the library there's this beautiful reading room. Again, if you want to go onto our website and have a look, it's just an amazing space that you can see there, the library, and it's very well used to have some outdoor space as well within the library. But we also have the outdoor spaces that you can see that are part of the university, and lead us very nicely into Darling Harbor into Chinatown, and then further into Broadway.

            We have three beautiful courts, a moot court, and two trial courts that you can see there, that even if you are not undertaking subjects that have mooting in them, you can still access those rooms. And they're on level 14 of the building that you seen in the center of the slide, and that's very much a student area. We also have anti-slavery and AustLII. Many of you will have heard of AustLII legal information service on level 14, with our courts and with student spaces, including a postgraduate only student space.

            So, I hope you do get the opportunity to come onto campus and really enjoy our facilities. So, this is a new offering or part of the building that will be online next year. So, on level 14, which is really, as I said, the student based level, we have a space that's set aside for post-graduate students only. That space is currently being designed, and the thinking for the design of the space is to have some individual work areas. So, if students want some quiet time to work on their own, they can, but they'll also have some collaborative space. So, if you just want to relax and speak with other students, if you are doing a project with other students, if you've got time between classes, if you find studying on the weekend tricky at home and you're able to come into the university, then this is a space for you.

            And the space will also include tea and coffee making facilities. So, it will also be used for small events for postgraduate students. I think the importance of this is that it is your own space and it recognizes that postgraduate learners are a little bit different to our undergraduate learners. So, we are very excited that we have this availability now within the law building, or building two. Thank you.

            So, you can see here on the slide, the entry requirements for the Master of Laws and the Graduates Certificate in Laws for both local and then for international students. What I would suggest if you are not sure of meeting the entry requirements, that you send a request to the contact that I'll give you at the end of the webinar, and ask a question. There's certainly no harm also in applying, we will get back to you with a decision. And with our post graduate programs, we do have, again, a level of flexibility around entry requirements. We're not so much tied to ATAR or other pathway programs. There are several factors that we take into consideration when offering places in our postgraduate program. You can see the English proficiency that's required for international students, and that's a university determined requirement. Thank you.

            We know that fees are a very important factor in your decision making for post-graduate study. It's a commitment of your finances as well as a commitment of your time and your energy. So, you can see here, the fees for both the Masters and the Graduate Certificate. Fee information is also available on our website. And two things that I'd like to point out that fee help is available for our postgraduate courses for domestic students. And as Sarah is a UTS alum as an undergraduate student with us, she was eligible for the 10% discount on doing a second course. So, if you are at this webinar this evening and you are studying with us already, you are also entitled to the 10% discount on your fee. So, that does make a difference. Something to keep in mind. And I would encourage you to get more information about fee help at the website that is provided there.

            So, what I'd like to do now is to answer some questions that you put Q&A box, and they look like a great range of questions.

            So, I shall go through these questions and some of them I know will be for Sarah. So, I will come to Sarah when those questions arise. So, I'm just going to go from the top and go all the way down. So, our first question is whether a student should undertake a law degree, undertake a Master of Laws, or do their practical legal training first. It's a really good question, because as we know, the Master of Laws is for lawyers. So, to be a lawyer, to be admitted as a practitioner as Sarah is, you have to undertake your academic qualifications as well as your practical legal training qualifications. I would like to let you know too, that if you are a student at UTS, we have a practical legal training program here. It's a long established program, and it is the Graduate Certificate in Professional Legal Practice.

            So, we would recommend that you undertake either PLT with us and then move on to your Master of Laws. If you are not sure about practice, but you do want to undertake further study in law and you have that academic law degree, then you could certainly do the Masters and then your PLT. These type of questions about your planning, because PLT is also offered over summer, if you're doing Graduate Certificate also attracts a 10% alumni saving. You could make an appointment with Tracey Booth, or you could contact me, and we would give you some advice about what that might look like, whether you do your PLT or your Masters.

            If you are a JD student with us here in the law faculty, you get recognition of prior learning for half, for 50% of the Masters or the Grad Cert. So, that's something to keep in mind. Not as many subject and so you might want to fit in the study of doing PLT first and then your Masters, but it's really about planning to suit your circumstances. Sarah, I might hand this question over to you. So, it is what advice would you give a law student in their final two years of their degree in preparation for a corporate career?

Sarah Romanous (37:27):

Thanks Maxine. Well, I mean I'm assuming that they mean a corporate law career, rather than a corporate consulting big four type career. But I think it's probably a little bit similar anyway. I would probably say to think carefully about your subjects in your final two years. If you do want to pursue a corporate career, try and align your electives with that career path. I know UTS has a really broad range of electives and quite a number of them would go towards a corporate career.

            So, definitely consider what type of corporate law you would like to practice in and try and choose some of those electives. And then also consider a clerkship in a firm with a corporate law practice. It's good exposure to the area of law, and it's also great for skills based training and networking. And it's not a requirement, but I think it would assist in terms of applying for a graduate position at a similar firm as well.

Maxine Evers (38:37):

Sarah, thank you. I'm not upset that you are more popular than I am. So, there are many questions for you, so I might keep you on the spot. And so next question is, in terms of career progression, do you find the Masters help you to move up the rank, so to speak, from associate to senior associate, and how was the balance with work? Did you still work full-time while doing the Masters? That's a really good question.

Sarah Romanous (39:02):

Yeah. So, I might start with the last part of it, which is did I still work full-time? Yes, I did. I worked full-time the two years that I was studying part-time. And how was the balance with work? It was okay, but it's definitely something that you should be aware of and plan for. If you are planning on working full-time while you study, you really do need to essentially schedule time to study and really prioritize study in the same way that you prioritize work and your other commitments in life. And I think that you should go into it with your eyes fully open to the fact that that's not always easy. You're adding an extra commitment into your life for a period of time that you need to really commit to and dedicate time to, to do well.

            So, my advice on that is to just try and be organized and actually commit to the study requirements. In terms of career progression, did it help me move from an associate to a senior associate? I actually didn't think about it until I saw the question, but it actually did align with my progression to a senior associate. So, I finished my coursework at the same time that I was promoted. And I think that that's because my skills and my confidence had obviously progressively increased while I was studying, to allow my superiors to think that I was ready for that next step. And at our firm you have to do an application for a promotion, so it's merit based and you have to actually, you self-promote essentially, and have to indicate whether you think you meet the requirements of that next step. And I think that part of my application did speak about all of the knowledge and skills that I had gained while studying my Masters. So, I think it definitely helped.

Maxine Evers (40:55):

Thank you. And if I can just add in to that first part of the question, I think that is one of the strengths that we have the flexibility. So, if you do have to manage work and study and something does happen that you can't prioritize both, then you can move to either doing one subject or taking leave. These are fantastic questions. Sarah, do you have any advice for law students as to study tips for assignment and exams? First part. Second part, what was your favorite subject?

Sarah Romanous (41:29):

Great questions. Study tips. Like I said, I'm a very organized. Well, I try to be very organized. So, like I was saying, I do find that scheduling time to focus and commit to achieving some sort of goal with my study was really useful to me, whether it was to complete my readings that particular night, or to do the first part of an assessment. So, actually just breaking it down into manageable pieces and then committing to doing those activities in that slot of time, especially while I was working. What other study tips? I mean I like color coded Post-it notes for my textbook. So, mark those relevant sections or mark my relevant sections of my notes. I like to do an assignment and then leave it at night and check it again with fresh eyes.

            I find that I pick up on mistakes that I've made or things that I could have been clearer in my writing about with fresh eyes. And that's something that I do with work as well. So, not sending something off, not submitting it at the last minute. I know that that's probably freaking a lot of people out because they might usually submit assignments in that way, but it definitely doesn't work for me. What was my favorite subject? In my postgraduate degree, I think my two favorite subjects were, the first one was Media and Entertainment Law. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I practice in, but it was just extremely fascinating and really engaging and very well taught.

            And the second subject that I would say was my favorite was Law and Literature, which was actually taught by Honni, and that was a fantastic course and I absolutely loved it. And the irony is my two favorite subjects had nothing to do with my practice area. That's not to say I didn't enjoy the rest of my subjects, which were more commercial law or intellectual property related, but I really loved being able to step into other areas and more theoretical areas. That's just a personal preference for me in terms of learning style. I mean in my undergraduate degree, I loved jurisprudence and I loved criminology and wickedness and vice. And I think almost all of those were taught by Penny Crofts at the time. So, I just really like legal theory, but hopefully that's helpful.

Maxine Evers (43:50):

We could do a major in legal theory, because it's not always everyone's favorite area.

Sarah Romanous (43:56):

I think you'd be tempting me to come back again, Maxine.

Maxine Evers (43:59):

So, good question. They're all great questions. How many years did you wait between completing your undergrad before commencing the Masters?

Sarah Romanous (44:09):

Four years. It was four years from when I finished my undergraduate degree to when I started my Masters. And then by the time I finished, it had been six years essentially between graduation of both degrees.

Maxine Evers (44:24):

That worked well?

Sarah Romanous (44:26):

Yes, it did. It worked really well for me. I mean it was enough time for me to understand the gaps in my knowledge in terms of which areas I probably hadn't had the foundation that I needed in, especially intellectual property, because I didn't study it as an elective in my undergraduate degree. And by that point I had really chosen my practice area. So, it was worthwhile from that perspective because I was able to focus what my Masters was going to be about. But I know quite a few of my colleagues did their Masters immediately after finishing their undergraduate law degree, and that worked out really well for them as well. Some people do know what they want to do straight away, and others don't. So, I think both options are totally valid and I don't think either one would be better than the other. It's just up to the person and what they want to do with their career.

Maxine Evers (45:23):

That's fantastic advice. Thank you, Sarah. So, now we want to know, your day or really your work-life balance as a commercial lawyer. So, what does that look like? And then a second part of that question is a really interesting one, do you think having the Masters could help you say switch to the government sector and possibly a more senior role?

Sarah Romanous (45:50):

Yeah, really interesting questions. So, work-life balance. I think it depends where you work, what your work-life balance will end up being like. My work-life balance is actually quite reasonable. I was originally a public servant, so actually started my legal career at the Department of Defense and that government sector definitely has great work-life balance, I would say. I've then obviously moved into a private law firm. It's not as wonderful in terms of the hours. I don't get flex or time in lieu as a standard. But I think in terms of a commercial law firm, HWL is quite reasonable with the expectations regarding work-life balance.

            I generally finish work by about six o'clock every day, which I think for a commercial law firm is pretty reasonable. Obviously that doesn't count quite what I would describe as really peak intense periods, which do happen. And also it doesn't account for the fact that I often negotiate with overseas counterparts on behalf of government clients. So, for example, over the last month I have been starting at about 6:30 AM to do US negotiations. So, you've got to have a level of flexibility, I would say, if you do want to work for one of the larger law firms, if you do want to work in commercial law at those sorts of settings. But I think that the best thing to do when you're interviewing at these firms, is to actually ask that question and to really ask for a truthful answer and not just a glossy, "We promote work-life balance. It's part of our culture."

            Because that doesn't mean the same thing at every firm. And it doesn't mean the same thing for all of my friends that work at different firms. It means a lot to me, so it's something I have always asked about when I've gone to a new workplace. And I think that just getting an honest answer from the employer about that is really important. The second question's really interesting, because obviously I do do quite a lot of government commercial work and I did start as a public servant. I don't think your Masters is a requirement for moving into the public sector, but it just depends what kind of government work you want to do. Because obviously just saying government sector is quite broad. So, I do government commercial work and I was practicing in this area and had a public service role before doing my Masters.

            But I think that obviously if you wanted to be a government IP practitioner, then your Masters in Intellectual Property would be really helpful. So, it just depends what kind of government work you want to do. In terms of seniority, yes, the government employment process, I think, would definitely look at the fact that you had an additional qualification and that would be looked upon favorably.

Maxine Evers (48:41):

And related question. What advice do you have for law students in their final years who want to work in a law firm with no prior experience in the legal field, and how can you make yourself stand out to employers?

Sarah Romanous (48:57):

Really interesting. So, I do help sometimes with the graduate interview process at work. So, your CV is looked at pretty holistically. Not everybody has done a clerkship, not everyone has worked as a paralegal, for example. And I don't think that that's looked at in a negative light. So, don't worry, first of all. I think that my advice would be to really be yourself. It's pretty obvious when people are trying to put on a front. They usually break down after a few questions. So, I think to start out from a place of honesty and really just think about what sets you apart, not from a legal perspective, but just as a person, what are your actual strengths? What skill sets can you bring in? And it could be that you know you'll be a great team player, because you've played a lot of team sports and you're a leader in that sort of thing.

            I think that you need to know that when you're applying for a role as a graduate, someone who's just starting their legal career, nobody expects you to actually know everything. In fact, the expectations of your knowledge are going to be quite low. And that's not anything against your law degree or anything, because obviously you've had a really great foundation of training at UTS and you know exactly what you're doing as a law graduate, but the expectation isn't that you're going to come in and be a great practitioner from day one. The expectation is that you're going to be a great asset to the team in terms of who you are as a person and that you have the ability to learn. So, I think showing a bit of your personality is probably the most important thing.

Maxine Evers (50:41):

If I could just confirm, Sarah, what you've said. The Dean and I have recently been visiting some of the law firms, just touching base to see how the last couple of years have been, to get some feedback on our graduates. And that's certainly a reoccurring response that we receive that students that can speak about their personal attributes, how they could transfer those into a professional environment, are really held in high regards. So, that's a great example of team sport. If you've done volunteer work, we have a very popular Bread and Justice, and leadership program at UTS.

            And several of our students will say they have it on their CV and they'll be asked, "What does that mean?" And that just gives them the opportunity to talk about the service work they've done, where they volunteer. It doesn't have to be in a law placement. What they've done about reflective practice, how they've been exposed to discussion around law reform, and just about what it is to be a lawyer and the role of lawyers, et cetera. So, I completely agree with you, and we have a lot of evidence to say it's not just about your academic record. Staying with you, Sarah, you are very popular tonight.

Sarah Romanous (51:57):

No problem.

Maxine Evers (51:57):

Would you recommend working part-time in the legal sector as opposed to full-time whilst also undertaking a Masters in Law part-time? So, let's say part-time study, part-time work.

Sarah Romanous (52:09):

I think if you can afford to work part-time and study part-time, it would obviously free you up a lot to do the study and also just to have free time for your friends and family and your social life generally. But I think there's nothing to stop you from working full-time and studying part-time. It's very common. It's what I did. I think it really does come down to your financial situation, whether you can actually afford that. But in terms of if either one's better, it's really just about what you can commit to and what you have the time for and what you have the financial ability to do, I think.

Maxine Evers (52:51):

Thanks Sarah. I mean we do have students and obviously when you've got quite a few subjects to study, you don't necessarily want to be doing one subject a session. But we do have students that will drop back to just doing the one subject, particularly over summer, for example, so that they're progressing, but they're not overloading.

Sarah Romanous (53:10):

Overdoing it. Yeah, absolutely.

Maxine Evers (53:12):

Another question, which you have answered to an extent, but I think there's part of it that you haven't. Could you tell us what a day in the life of a commercial lawyer is? What time do you start and finish? We've heard about the 6:30 AM when you've got to be on the global network and generally finishing at 6:00 PM, but there are exceptions. And then the question following that is, do you ever feel burnt out? And we know that is a thing in the legal profession. So, you and your colleagues and your observations about burnt out?

Sarah Romanous (53:45):

That's a great question. So, a day in the life of a commercial lawyer. Well, at the moment I work on quite a few government major projects. So, usually it's the procurement of some sort of what they call capability, which can be goods or services from suppliers. And those projects can last anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of years. So, usually my day would involve a few meetings with clients to go over their requirements, stakeholder input into draft contract documentation, for example, doing some drafting work, writing advice on policy, or legislation, or specific provisions in the contract. If I'm in negotiations, it's often preparing for those negotiations, which means going through all of the clauses that are not agreed essentially, and preparing what my preferred position is, what my fallback position is, and understanding what exists in between those spaces.

            And as a senior associate, you're expected to do quite a bit of mentoring and development of junior lawyers in the team. So, I spend some of my time reviewing and providing feedback to my colleagues at lower levels, and making sure that they're understanding what they're doing and that they have enough work on, and that I'm giving them constructive feedback so they can constantly improve and learn. My days usually start at about 8:30/9:00 AM, unless I have meetings earlier, which are usually just international, or sometimes if I'm working with Air force or Navy, they sometimes like to have the 7:00 AM starts, because they're used to that in military life.

            And then finishing at about between five and six, it just depends how busy I am, unless I'm in a what I would call a peak period where it can go over sometimes. Do I feel burnt out ever? I mean, yes, I do sometimes, especially when I'm doing negotiations. I think in my area of law, that is the most intense period of a matter. It often, especially if we're having daily negotiations, it means that I'm preparing in the morning, attending the negotiations during the day, and then preparing again at night for the next day. So, it does extend my days during those periods. And the most recent set that I had went for three weeks straight of 6:30 AM starts, because the negotiations themselves were early in the morning, and then settling drafting with my partner in the evening.

            So, it was quite intense. I don't think I was burnt out in the sense that I don't want to do this anymore, but I was in the sense that I really needed a break after that, and I couldn't sustain that for an extended period of time. And I think that some areas of law, I don't work in this area, but I would imagine litigation, for example, if they are on a matter that is in court for an extended period of time, or various matters immediately after each other, that burnout would be a real risk. And if you do work at a firm or for a partner that doesn't understand or appreciate work-life balance, then that could lead to burnout quite easily as well. So, it's something that you should keep an eye out for and be aware of when you're looking at where you want to work and the kind of culture that you want to be around.

Maxine Evers (57:24):

Thank you. That's such wise words. Thank you, Sarah. You can have a little rest now.

Sarah Romanous (57:27):

Thank you.

Maxine Evers (57:27):

Just a couple more questions. I know we're getting close to the end of the webinar, but some really good questions around 50% credit for JD students moving into the Masters and how long does that credit last for. Currently the credit is for six years. So, if you have studied within a period of six years, you can apply for recognition of prior learning or credit. I will let you know that the university as a whole is looking at reducing that to five years. So, what I would recommend is that you just check in with us from time to time if you are thinking of doing some study, but having a break as Sarah did. And then I think the final question is, are there any electives that you would recommend law students to participate in that would further their career should they decide to complete a Masters?

            I think it is really up to your interests that you can choose from a range of electives. We cluster our electives. So, we've got IP, we've got international, we've got environmental, we've got public, private, health and families, legal theory, et cetera. So, that's, again, the benefit of having a Director of Students to talk about those things, and it really just come down to what suits your needs and your interests. So, I note we are finished right on time. Again, my thanks to Sarah for her generosity in coming back, and we look forward to welcoming Sarah back when we'll be back on campus, but we also look forward to welcoming you onto our campus when we can.

            And thank you for your attention, for those fantastic questions tonight, and I wish you all the very best in your decision making. You can see where you can connect with us. So, please don't hesitate to ask a question. As I said, you've got your connections there, but you can also email me as well. I'm happy to give some further advice or guidance if I can. So, thank you everybody. Stay safe and good night.