Crime, security and investigation

Claude: Welcome to UTS Science in Focus, a free lecture series showcasing the latest research from prominent UTS scientists and researchers.  I am Distinguished Professor Claude Roux, Director of the Centre for Forensic Science and the President of the International Association of Forensic Sciences. I will be the moderator for today's event, collecting questions and asking our speakers these questions at the end of the talk. Before I introduce our speakers today, I would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora nation upon whose ancestral lands our city campus now stands. I would also like to pay respect to the elders, both past and present, acknowledging them as the traditional custodians of knowledge for this land. I would also like to dedicate this event to Dr Tony Raymond, one of the most prominent forensic science leaders of these last 40 years who recently passed away. Tony played a significant role in the advancement of forensic science, both nationally and internationally. The topic tonight was at the core of Tony's professional interest. He was a dear friend of ours and is sorely missed. Just a little bit of housekeeping before we get started. With this being an online event, do bear with us. If there are any technical issues, we will work to resolve them quickly. If you find you are not able to access the talk at any point, please log out and log back in again. Because that usually resolves such issues. If you have any questions during today's webinar, please type them into the Q&A box in your Zoom control panel and we will do our best to answer the question along the way. If you like a question someone else has asked and you would like it answered, please use the upvoting tool, which is a little thumbs up symbol next to the question itself.

Claude: This session will be recorded, but we will not be recording any video or audio input from the audience. If you do not wish to be involved and be recorded as part of this webinar, you may contact UTS at science.future@uts.edu.au to discuss any concerns or questions you have.

Claude: We live in a rapidly changing and complex environment where the boundaries between our physical and digital worlds are being increasingly blurred. What is the impact of these transformations on crime and also investigation? What does it mean for security? With this in mind, where does the future of forensic science lie? Today, we are lucky to have three leading forensic scientists to debate these questions. First, Dr Sarah Benson. Sarah is currently employed at the Australian Federal Police, Chief Forensic Scientist. In this role, Sarah leads and manage the AFP Forensics portfolio, providing operational and capability leadership across the entire range of the AFP's domestic and international policing responsibility. Sarah joined the AFP in 2000 upon graduation from UTS with a Bachelor of Science in Applied Chemistry and Forensic Science with Honours. Sarah was awarded a PhD in 2009 for a thesis on the application of isotope ratio mass spectrometry for the forensic analysis of explosives. Sarah has significant operational experience in support of community, national and international policing. She has undertaken deployments to countries in Southeast Asia to assist local authorities with forensic examination and capability development and performed the Forensics-DVI Commander role in the Netherlands and Ukraine in support of the MH17 disaster in 2014. In September 2015 Sarah was awarded the Bravery Award at the 2015 Excellence in Policing Awards, acknowledging bravery required to improve policing for all members of the community. And now we now hand over to our first speaker, Dr Sarah Benson.

Sarah: Thank you, Claude, for that introduction and thank you for having me tonight, it's a real privilege to be part of this series. I thought I'd start by talking about the AFP's operating environment and what challenges and opportunities this presents for us. Of particular interest, you can see in the infographic on the screen in the top left corner, we can see that 70 per cent of Australia's serious criminal targets live or have links overseas. In the bottom right of the infographic, you can see that Australia as a criminal market is very attractive. This includes because Australians pay some of the highest prices for drugs in the world. In the middle of the screen, you can see that shipping tonnages of illicit drugs into Australia across the borders have doubled and this number is only increasing. Also, in the middle of the screen, we can see that the great increase in digital connectivity, which we're all very aware of, presents some challenges and opportunities for us. And we can also see at the top of the screen that there's been 120 percent increase in terrorism incidents globally and an increase domestically, which has changed our national security landscape considerably. Some of the challenges and opportunities that this presents for the AFP and our partners is that we've obviously got the challenges of data volume and complexity for law enforcement and other agencies, and also an associated increasing demand. For digital forensics, which sits within our forensics portfolio in the AFP, is called upon in over 90 percent of AFP investigations.

Sarah: The complexity and also the demand presents an opportunity for smarter policing, which we're very excited about with stronger partnerships, which we know are absolutely key. There's also an opportunity to enhance our intelligence-led policing, to target our law enforcement and also security efforts. We know that the nature of offending and the international dimension that I've highlighted, also highlights the importance of the role of the AFP international network, as well as our partnerships to disrupt crime locally, but also offshore. So this next slide talks about the environment and how it informs our forensics capability set and our business model, specifically how we deliver our services with trust and impact, both here and overseas. So AFP forensics has been on a continuous journey of change, like most organisations, but particularly driven about this operating environment that I've spoken about. But we're also very much driven about or driven by our new forensics facility here in Canberra, which opened in 2016. The opportunity to build a new facility from scratch presented so many opportunities for us, and we're very fortunate, unlike some of our partners here and overseas, but we know we're very fortunate. The design and implementation of the new facility drove significant business process reengineering for us and to design a facility that could accommodate the way that we wanted to work into the future. So at the start of our reform work, and you can see the pendulum up on the slide here, we were focused very much on making sure that our, all of our disciplines were having impact across the full span of that investigation and prosecution part of policing work.

Sarah: So you can see that on the pendulum, we were trying to do things to make sure that very traditional and fundamental capabilities were still having impact as the environment changed around us. And one of the examples we talk about is document sciences and the shift to the digital era and how could we still make digital and document science as relevant in a digital era. So we underwent significant reform. But what we realised was what about the disruption and prevention of crime, particularly as that national security environment changed around us. So we saw that there was an opportunity and a requirement for forensics to broaden our engagement and also our capabilities, given that landscape that we're operating in. So we want to go beyond the reconstruction of events of a crime that had already taken place. So this increased contribution in the crime prevention and disruption phase is what we see as our expanded role for forensic science to ensure community safety and security for those that live in Australia and also Australians offshore. So this expanded role has included for forensics to adjust to shorter planning, to be more proactive in our engagement and our response, and consideration of the intelligence dividend of what we do. And we are also working towards supporting proving new criminal offences through science and technology, where traditional policing methodology was not working. So one good operational example of this expanded role was the arrest and later prosecution of Sydney brothers who attempted to place an IED, so an improvised explosive device, on a commercial flight from Sydney in 2017. Forensic and technical intelligence and forensic capabilities deployed in novel ways and in partnership with our partners here and overseas, contributed in that case to keeping the community safe and also a successful prosecution .

Sarah: In aligning to what is happening around us, we have developed a forensic science doctrine that you can see up on the screen. The doctrine, is describing how we do what we do to be more effective in that operating environment and has really changed and driven what our key foundations are to be effective and still remain, have credibility across that full pendulum swing, as you can see on the on the screen. So the doctrine has four key elements, as you can see up on the slide, and they include our capability plan, our professional development continuum, our quality management framework, and also our member wellbeing, which is increasingly important for our members, given what they're exposed to and the demand under which they're working. So we continue to develop these strong foundations to be able to deliver with credibility and impact across that full spectrum of the AFP's policing remit, both locally here in Canberra in the ACT, but nationally and internationally also, and also to be effective across that full, no matter where that pendulum is swinging, we want to be effective and have credibility and impact through forensic science and technical intelligence across that full pendulum swing.

Sarah: So as we continue to assess our value and our role into the future, one element of planning is that we assess trends that are impacting the strategic environment and then translate them to forensic science. So a recent internal assessment of high level global trends identified that social factors, including health and demographic profile and also population, would be the biggest global drivers impacting our world and our communities in one to two years time. But the five year assessment identified that technological trends, including ICT, communication and digitisation, would be the biggest global driver impacting our communities longer term. So we can see in this environment the crime types that policing and security agencies will be faced with are largely the same, including cybercrime, transnational, serious and organised crime, fraud and terrorism. However, we can expect a shift in demand and focus in a future environment. We can also expect a change in the criminal methodology, so the way in which crimes are planned and carried out. This is in part influenced by those global drivers that I just spoke about and also those trends, specifically enabled by technology in the future. So what this means for communities like forensics is we need to ensure that we build into our business model a way to stay in tune of what is happening around us in the environment and then adapt to what's coming. So whilst our specialist capabilities, including forensics and the AFP will largely be the same, we will need to absolutely evolve and consider how they are delivered in novel ways and in partnership to have impact.

Sarah: We cannot have the impact that we need alone. This includes changing our mindset, our approach, and also our frameworks for research and development to adopt new techniques and technology at a much faster pace. So given this future landscape, the importance of science and technology and the importance of partnerships cannot be overstated. So the partnerships of science and technology is front of mind absolutely in the AFP. The impact of technology, globalisation and digitisation on communities like policing now and into the future means that we need highly skilled specialists working together to develop and deliver solutions to protect the community. The AFP has recently aligned its forensics portfolio with its very traditional ICT and Technology branch to position us to do just that. And to finish up, partnerships. So both traditional and non-traditional partnerships are critical to any future success. There are partnerships across our national and also our international forensic science community, which are key but also essential. And there are partnerships across communities, including policing, security, intelligence, industry and also academia, that are absolutely fundamental to position us to success, and we fully recognise that. So lastly, our connection and partnership with the public. So the communities that we serve as the AFP is one that is always front of mind for us in the AFP forensics as we develop our capabilities to make sure that we ensure that public safety, but also interest and continued trust. So thank you. And back to you, Claude, and over to the other panel speakers. Thank you.

Claude: Thank you very much, Sarah. I think it was a very, very informative talk and no doubt we'll have plenty of questions later on. So next speaker, Dr Xanthe Spindler. Xanthe completed a Bachelor of Science in Forensics with Honours at the University of Newcastle, Australia in 2006 and PhD in Applied Chemistry at the University of Canberra in 2010, investigating methods to improve the detection of latent fingermarks. She secured a Chancellor's postdoctoral research fellowship with UTS Centre for Forensic Science in 2012 in the area of fingermark detection. Xanthe is currently a senior lecturer and course director for the Forensic Science Honours and Master's Program at the UTS Centre for Forensic Science School of Mathematical and Physical Sciences. Her research focuses on understanding and improving fingermark detection and the interpretation of forensic traces. Xanthe is a member of the Steering Committee of the International Fingerprint Research Group. And I will now hand over to our second speaker, Dr Xanthe Spindler.

Xanthe: Thanks, Claude, and thanks everyone, for joining us this evening. So in some ways, forensic science mimics the age old storytelling formula. We seek to answer questions of who or what may have left a remnant or trace of activity behind. But there's more to the story. How, when and why a trace was left behind, or even where it may have been before its final destination can be far more relevant and interesting questions in certain cases. The origins of forensic science are in the physical world. Based on tangible traces that can be transferred by proximity or contact and that can be observed by the naked eye or microscope. Scientific analysis was traditionally visual or basic chemical examination, but was as much about understanding the trace in its totality, as it was trying to determine its origins through comparison. We've all had every day Sherlock moments, observing these kinds of traces, spotting pet owners at work by the fur on their clothing or catching someone raiding the fridge by the greasy fingermarks left behind on the door. But what about the smaller, inconspicuous traces, the fibres transferred from your partner's clothing the last time you hugged them? Perhaps a thin layer of dust on your shoe soles that sheds as you walk around? Traces interact with their environment during and after transfer. Closely observing where the trace is located and how much of it is present can help go beyond the source to reconstructing an event or activity.

Xanthe: The rapid evolution of technology in the past few decades diverted our focus largely to the determination of a trace's source. Suddenly, we had these powerful techniques in search of an application combined with an increasingly mass produced, quality controlled world. We needed that analytical power in order to differentiate between similar red sweaters or sheets of glass. But this came with a hidden cost. Forensic scientists need to specialise in order to make the most of these analytical techniques, and as a result, we siloed into smaller niches, focused more on who and what, than on the complete character of the trace. Now, there's no denying that technology has revolutionised forensic science. The miniaturisation of analytical instruments opens up the possibility for rapid detection of traces or threats at the scene. More sensitive analytical methods are paving the way for new means of detecting and monitoring sports doping, or observing small changes in a trace due to environmental degradation. However, like pharmaceutical research, many proposed techniques don't find their place in casework because they're not quite fit for purpose. Or don't give us an advantage over existing methods. Which begs the question, what does it mean now when we can't detect a trace? Have we reached the practical limits of detection? Is there a more strategic way of designing new detection and analysis methods or even more smartly using the data that we do have? And how do we- what do we do when the relevant question is no longer who left the trace behind, but how or when did it get there? And these are some of the big questions we're grappling with at the moment.

Xanthe: It all comes back to the fundamental concepts of transfer, persistence, dating and detection. This isn't too dissimilar from the contact tracing process that we see in action every day. Well, at least at the moment. Our existing knowledge in this space largely predates most of you in the audience, and there has been a recent global effort to reinvigorate the area of activity level interpretation. And this has been aligned with a shift in forensic reporting towards a more holistic and probabilistic framework. Pre, at and post transfer activity and environment all influence a trace's potential evidential value. Understanding these phenomena through the lens of realistic casework scenarios is not trivial, and as my research students will attest to, is occasionally tedious. But it contributes enormously to the effectiveness of court-focused forensic science. The more we dive into the problem, the more we realise how traces distribute in particular scenarios is only part of the puzzle. Personal interactions and even our preferred commute influence the collection of background noise from incidental contact.

Xanthe: A person's activities or the weather between transfer and detection affect the persistence of traces. And traces can even survive obliteration, cleaning or disposal attempts in some circumstances. This isn't to say that we've solved all the detection problems in the physical world. Modern manufacturing processes and fashion are constantly changing, and there still needs to be a reiterative approach to forensic science. The humble polymer bank note turned fingermark detection on its head and continues to do so as new security features and coatings are added to the final product. Techniques that once worked consistently may not be effective for new materials. Or seasonal trends affect the frequency of paint and textile colours in the general population. Many traces are becoming intertwined as we broaden our scope for detection. For example, the ability to detect DNA within the latent fingermark. Or a personal electronic device containing both physical and digital traces. Exploiting these traces within traces needs a balance between the specialisation required for modern analysis and the multidisciplinarity needed to extract as much value as possible from the trace.

Xanthe: Digital technology is a game changer for forensic science in the physical world. Machine learning, artificial intelligence and a general improvement in computational power have the potential to expand the detection and interpretation of physical traces. Forensic genetics has recently opened up new investigative doors through forensic genealogy and the application of massively parallel sequencing to provide information about a donor beyond traditional DNA profiling.

Xanthe: Technological advances have not only led to more rapid and powerful analytical techniques, but also digitised case data, which facilitated the proactive use of traces and case data for linking unsolved crimes and for forensic intelligence, as Sarah mentioned in her talk. This, in turn, provides opportunities for more effective policing, resource allocation, preventative social programs and improved community safety. Forensic intelligence plays a crucial role in the expansion of forensic science beyond the court-focused approach we're familiar with. The future of forensic sciences is multifaceted and a little bit steampunk, a combination of our foundational roots and technology to create this new cohesive entity. The blending of our digital and physical lives has been accelerated by the pandemic, and we are increasingly leaving traces of our physical activities in the digital world. The relevant forensic questions have also temporarily changed. There's less incidental contact between people, restrictions on licensed venues, people spending more time at home and lower public transport usage. And these all have the potential to change the nature of forensic interpretation in the physical world. But while the physical world will eventually return to a more familiar equilibrium, we can't undo those changes with forensic science in the digital world and it's only going to grow from here.

Claude: Thank you very much Xanthe for another very informative, inspiring presentation. I would like to remind the audience that you can submit questions via the Q&A button, so we already have a good number of questions and we'll address them at the end of the panel discussion. So the next speaker, moving into the digital world, we've got Dr. Manoranjan Mohanty and Manoranjan is a lecturer at the Centre for Forensic Science and the Faculty of Science at UTS. His research interest is on digital forensic science and cyber security with a current focus on multimedia forensics and artificial intelligence for forensic science. Manoranjan received his Ph.D. in computer science from the National University of Singapore in 2014. After that, he spent a year as a research fellow at the Swedish Institute of Computer Science and then two years as a research fellow again at New York University. Before joining UTS, he was a lecturer in digital security at the University of Auckland in New Zealand. So now I will hand over to our third speaker, Dr Manoranjan Mohanty.

Manoranjan: Thank you Claude for the kind introduction. So moving to the digital world, it's no secret that our world is going through an unprecedented digital transformation for the last few years.  Technologies like social media, artificial intelligence, Internet of Things are influencing our life in a daily basis. In the future, these technologies are also going to spread in an unprecedented rate. For example, by the year 2030, five billion Facebook users are going to be there, which is more than half of the world's population. By the year 2030 again, it's estimated that 24 billion devices are going to be connected to the Internet. That's three devices per person in this world. And by the year 2025, 50 percent of our workplace are going to be done by the AI based automated systems.

Manoranjan: So this digital transformation is bringing both opportunities and challenges for forensic science. Due to this digital transformation, the law enforcement agencies and police are getting a new kind of trace which we know as digital trace. On the other hand, digital transformation has also brought the more dangerous cybercrime cases, which is increasing from day to day. There are many examples where the digitisation has helped the law enforcement agencies. The digital traces that a suspect leaves on his or her computer or storage device, the website he or she has visited, social media activities and so on, have provided a lot of clues. In a recent high profile case of the Golden State killer where the offender was roaming free after doing more than 10 murders, 50 rapes and more than a hundred robberies for 50 years. But due to the digitisation of DNA, that offender was caught recently in 2018. So some of the relatives of the offender actually used one very popular website to know their family history by providing that DNA. So eventually that DNA was matched to one of the DNA that was collected from the crime scene and that matching actually led the investigator to the offender.

Manoranjan: In the recent days, digital technologies like social media and IOT are producing data in a large amount and also better IT at a better speed. And at the moment we are talking about how tens of thousands of images and videos are being shared in social media. This data, which also we know as big data, coupled with the technology that we know as AI or artificial intelligence are bringing and also in future they are going to bring new opportunities for policing. The AI has given to us the automated video surveillance by which it's possible now to monitor a large number of images and videos that are appearing in the social media. AI and big data can also be used for solving cold cases. It's a known fact that the police force do not have enough manpower to look into both cold cases and recent cases. In that scenario, AI can be employed to look at the cold cases. AI can also be used to give a fresh look to the traces that have been gathered before and unearth any new clues. AI can also be used to understand a crime syndicate. In an interesting recent AI studies, it has been found that contrary to the general belief, catching the arresting and the bust of a crime syndicate can actually make the crime syndicate stronger. The crime syndicate under a new boss can become much stronger. But in the same study it was found. AI can also be used for predictive policing. Using AI, it can be found out where a future crime is going to happen and who is going to do that. Using the same AI, it can also be known if someone or some group is going to be subject of a new crime in future.

Manoranjan: However, AI based solutions have privacy and ethical issues. AI-based solutions have been blamed to be biased. And we have seen in the recent digital law in Europe, privacy is becoming a major issue worldwide. Therefore, when employing AI based solution mainly for forensics, we have to be careful because if a piece of evidence has been collected by and not obeying the privacy law, that piece of the evidence, no matter how strong it is, can be declared void by the court of law. AI based solutions has been blamed to be biased towards a particular group or a particular race. Although the poor choice of a particular asset, which we call the examples, is the main culprit here. And the poor choice of that asset may not be always intentional, but when we are employing AI based solutions, mainly for forensic, we have to be extra careful because as we know, the law enforcement agencies have the bigger social responsibility. In UTS, we are publishing some of these issues in AI based solutions. The digital transformation also is bringing a lot of opportunities. It's also bringing new challenges. One of the main challenges which Sarah had mentioned briefly, is quality management. And a piece of trace that has been collected using software today, that software may actually change tomorrow due to the patching of the software. In that case, maintaining the quality of that evidence or the trace is really crucial. Cloud computing, which is also a recent evolution in the digital space, is also another layer of problem for chain of custody, because unlike standalone computers, people are using cloud.  And when collecting traces from cloud, it cannot be controlled or the data cannot be collected in a controlled manner. The functionality of the cloud also cannot be controlled, unlike a standalone computer.

Manoranjan: So in that case, managing chain of custody is a big issue. So the same AI which has been touted as the game changer for forensics, is also bringing a fundamental issue because using AI as we know, images and videos can be faked. AI can generate fake images and videos. For example, a deep fake video. In that case, it's applied to that the court of law is going to ask when presented a piece of image or video as evidence, whether that piece of image or video evidence is actually AI generated or fake or not. Right. So that's a bigger question that the community has to answer. So coming from computer science background, I can tell that the technology so far has not been so successful to find a fake image or video always. Cyber harassment is another problem that's coming due to cyber technology. Cyber harassment as we are seeing, are increasing day to day. Cyber bullying, revenge porn cases, pornographic cases and so on are increasing in the society. And that's also need to be dealt with.

Manoranjan: So in UTS, we are focusing on digital forensic science and we believe that the digital traces has to be treated and integrated in a fundamental trace-led forensic science. We believe that digital forensics, not only using technology to unearth clues or traces, but digital forensic science has to follow the forensic lifecycle that we know. Some of the research that we are focusing on in the digital space are mainly related to multimedia forensics, for example, dealing with cyber harassment and also knowing where a particular camera has taken a particular image, which can be a crime image.  That's all. Thanks very much.

Claude: Thank you very much, Manoranjan. Again, another excellent presentation, so I'd like to thank every speaker today for providing some inspiring perspectives on forensic science and its future. We have had a lot of questions come through in the Q&A box and also from event registrations, so we'll try to get through as many of these as we can. And one question that came during the registration process is that the presentation shows that there is a great promise to expand the role and improve the effectiveness of forensic science. And what, in your opinion, is the main change that needs to happen in the current system of delivering forensic services in order to ensure we live up to our potential in the future? And I guess this is probably a question for Sarah first.

Sarah: Thanks Claude, and I'm happy to pass on to the other panel members, but happy to kick off certainly from our perspective here. I think one of the biggest things that needs to change is our mindset and opening up our minds to really considering the scope of our potential and how forensics and forensics data can actually contribute to that expanding problem that is facing our communities. So I think once we understand what that full potential is, then we can develop the frameworks, including the systems and the technological developments to actually support us, to be able to deliver that expanded role and that full potential and really be able to develop that governance and the underlying policy and legal framework and proper consultation to make sure that we can deliver those capabilities again, to have impact, but also to ensure that credibility and trust is maintained as we move forward. So I think that they're our biggest considerations. There's always more. I'll open up to Xanthe and Mano if they've got something further to add there.

Claude: Yes, I think there is a good question in terms of education and research probably here. So what do you think Xanthe?

Xanthe: Yeah, so I think the only thing I can build on from from Sarah's answer is our own responsibility as educators within that system as well, is to build up the next the next generation of graduates, our current students, and making sure they're equipped for that change and that the ability to adapt to a new forensic science world and then start making those changes from within as well as they start to get into those leadership roles.

Claude: Thank you. So I've got another question here about identity, and I'll send that to Mano's way, Manoranjan. So it's identity is considered an important concept in forensic science. Do you think that the digital transformation changed the nature of what identity means and how?

Manoranjan: I think yes it has changed, so as you know, due to digital transformation, we have got something called digital identity. So unlike the physical appearance or the fingerprint, my password and my username can also act as an identity. So what I'm saying is, like, if you get an email, a threatening email from my email account, so that can imply that I have sent that. And then due to this digital transformation, we know that digitisation of physical identity has also happened. So, for example, like how the people is walking like the gait or how he or she is driving also has become part of kind of identity. So that's possible or that's actually due to the digital transformation. So but there are a few things that also has changed. Like as we know, your identity can be faked, or identity theft has also increased. And I believe that that's because of digitisation and also, as I said, password and user name can attach identity. But then we know they are stealing that also easily in the digital world or, you know, so concealing that password or username is also easy. so well in the physical world also that happens to some extent. But I think due to digitisation, that concealing identity or identity theft has actually increased, which we need to actually deter.

Manoranjan: Thanks a lot, Manoranjan. And Sarah, do you have any anything to add to that?

Sarah: I think just probably reemphasising those points, certainly from an AFP perspective, I think the shift that we've seen is that shift from policing just the physical communities, so responding in our physical communities and re-establishing those traces, traces that Xanthe mentioned, to now policing in a digital world. That is the biggest thing probably that's impacted our scope of what we're looking at with respect to identity and then how we capture those elements where we can within our legal frameworks to be able to prove offences, criminal offences that have actually occurred. So, again, it's that shift from the physical to the digital world that is absolutely expanded, I guess, the way in which people are offending, but also the way in which we need to think about trying to prove those criminal offences, both at a state, national and also state and Commonwealth and also international level.

Claude: Thanks a lot. Very, very good responses here. And now, maybe a question for Xanthe or Mano, what area or specific forensic research projects are you currently most excited about? So maybe Xanthe and then Manoranjan.

Xanthe: Do I have to pick one? So we... Some of the the concepts that I spoke about are very much active research projects that we're working on at the moment. So really, what's exciting me in the forensic science research space at the moment is understanding a lot more of those what I called 'trace kinetics', so what happens with transfer, persistence, what we see in particular scenarios, and I've got a lovely group of PhD students working in that space at the moment, trying to understand some of these fundamental concepts which really do affect how we interpret traces in a forensic context. But going back to my own roots in fingermark detection as well, there's a big cohesive effort worldwide at the moment to try and improve processes and really understand what we can do to improve what we currently have to improve detection rates, but then also to sort of understand how the changing manufacturing world, new papers, new plastics and all of these sorts of things are actually influencing our own processes in the laboratory and what we can do to future proof our physical methods as well.

Claude: Thanks Xanthe.  And Manoranjan, do to have anything you want to share about excitement about research projects for you?

Manoranjan: Yeah, so actually we're working on pretty much cybercrime plus digital forensic science. So, as I briefly talked about. One of the projects that we are working on is to find cyber harassment, which includes cyber bullying, then revenge porn included, child pornography images and videos. But in a multimedia space, I mean, that's because the number of images that we call as image crime is increasing every day. That's a bigger issue here in Australia as well. So that's one thing that we are looking at. Like can we, you know, in social media, can we just get an image or video can say that whether they belong to cyber harassment or not. So that's one part, which is basically cyber crime laws, I would say forensics science. Then we are one step ahead, actually. So what we are doing actually to help an investigation? So, not only finding a crime image or video, but also to know which camera, which particular camera has taken that image or video so that, you know, so the law enforcement agencies can zero in on the suspect. And so what we're doing actually taking an anonymous image to find out which camera has taken it, so that exactly what we're focusing on and some of the work that I shared includes AI.

Claude: Thank you Manoranjan. And I've got a very interesting question here. And I guess I'll read the question and probably ask Sarah to answer first and maybe Manoranjan would have a view or even Xanthe. So in 2015, a terror attack in San Bernardino resulted in the death of 14 people and 22 people injured. The FBI requested Apple provide them a backdoor access through the iOS, which Apple denied and the court ruled in favour. What avenues do you see forensic and investigative frameworks taking to avoid this problem in the future? Or will companies in the private sector always have the final say in their security and privacy of users?

Claude: So maybe if Sarah has a view on this, as a chief scientist in an operational institution and then Manoranjan from a digital forensic science perspective.

Sarah: Thanks, Claude, and that is obviously a very topical... The fundamental part of that question is very topical for law enforcement and other agencies to make sure that as we develop new capabilities and as technology around us does advance is that we work in partnership. And that last slide that I had up for my presentation just reinforces the importance of the partnership across all of those communities. So I had up there working across the security, intelligence, policing, academia, industry, and this goes to this very point, but importantly with the public as well, because, you know, with the evolution of technology and the increasing or the changing way in which people are offending means that we need to be locked stead in partnership with industry and the community on what will the community and the public accept where we need to balance community safety, justice and also public interest to make sure that privacy is absolutely upheld and considered as we move forward. So I don't think it's ever going to be a silver bullet or a straight answer there. And it absolutely needs to be balanced. Public interest, public confidence and also public trust and privacy absolutely at the forefront as we move forward in developing capabilities. And that's why as we develop capabilities, we need to yes, consider what is possible through the advances in technology. But what needs to advance with respect to legal frameworks, policy, governance, privacy, impact assessments, that all needs to happen in partnership. So we can't have, you know, whiz bang fantastic science and technology moving forward that enables us to do something if it's not considered in the public interest. So no simple answer there, but something that is at the heart of how we consider moving forward with technological developments.

Claude: Thank you, Sarah. No doubt that it's a very complex question with a lot of different dimensions. And it's not only about the technology, but it's also how we use it, the ethics of it and and you name it. So it's quite complex. Manoranjan. Do you have a view there?

Manoranjan: Yeah, I think I'll second Sarah. So I think we have to balance privacy and forensic both. So I know I mean because I work in both the space and I know it's finding a balance is not always easy. So that's why we have the research going on. privacy in forensic which we do inUTS. And I consider it from an economic perspective, it's not easy. Sometimes usability is a bigger issue. And so then usability becomes an issue. And yeah, but we have to, the academic community has to find a balance between forensic and privacy because, you know, the forensic community think that, you know, privacy is... well it's the second priority. And the privacy community think that forensic is the second priority. But we have to sit together and find a balance.

Claude: Yeah, thanks, Manoranjan. I mean, no doubt when you have complex societal issues like we go through with COVID, it's a very complete transdisciplinary approach that is that is needed. I've got a question. I've... Probably from the Philippines and probably for Xanthe and or Sarah. What actions can you suggest to promote the forensic science degree in a country such as the Philippines? Because in the Philippines, forensic science is not that well known unlike the degree of Criminology. So I don't know if you've got a simple answer, Xanthe, to that? But and then Sarah, who I know from her work in the region, you have links with countries like the Philippines.

Xanthe: That's a tough one. I'm not actually sure I do have an answer in how we can promote forensic science and particularly forensic science education in those sorts of situations. I suppose, like everything, it starts with awareness. So building up an awareness of what forensic science does and and how it can actually have an impact on the justice system and even where it intersects with disciplines such as criminology. I mean, we're working on a continuum or a spectrum from the social side on the more criminology side, through to the analytical forensic sciences. And that would potentially be a good place to start is what's familiar and then building up an awareness from there. Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah, I think absolutely spot on there, Xanthe. And I think starting to have police and the police laboratories go out and talk to students at school is really a really good place to start. That promotes that awareness and then followed up with that engagement with the local universities to ensure that the university programs and the academic programs are aligned to what law enforcement needs. So I think it needs that two pronged approach to promote, probably develop it first with universities and I know they do exist in the Philippines, but then also try and promote it and then create pathways for students to then have visibility and access and awareness of what actually does happen in the industry. Because I think as soon as you get that insight to what happens, you get hooked and then you can't leave because you could see that working for law enforcement, you can see that the value add that you can bring and it becomes quite a passion and hard to walk away from. So I think once you follow that path, you should be right.

Claude: Yeah, very good answer here. Another one here and probably for Sarah first and then then Xanthe, probably. How do you predict future needs in forensic science to design courses and recruit people with the right skills, assuming some of the roles haven't yet been identified, but maybe key in five years time from now? It's a very good question.

Sarah: Yeah, I'll start, I'll start answering. Let's see how I go. I think something we've talked about recently where we look, were looking into the future, was trying to understand what the... We're never going to be able to articulate what the exact future is and what's going to happen. But we can do some work to understand what the possible scope of the future looks like. And that's where I talk about in mine, in my slides. You know, I think we largely understand what the broad scope of the possible futures looks like and then work within that. So I think, I spoke about, you know, we know that the crime types are largely going to stay the same, but demand will shift and methodology will shift. So, again, building into the mindset, and I think Xanthe mentioned in one of her responses or her presentation building when we're developing future practitioners and leaders building that ability to be agile, adaptive, collaborative in approach to develop solutions. Building all those elements into somebody's mindset and the way in which they engage will be really important. And then things like our frameworks and policy governance and all those things will come afterwards, I guess. But I think teaching people the fundamentals is absolutely important, the fundamentals of the science and then the way in which to think in an agile and adaptive way and act in an agile and adaptive means that they can build on those solid foundations and then just adapt to what's happening around them. And when I was thinking about what to talk about tonight, I was thinking in the past 20 years or so, over the course of my career, what have been the three biggest changes and how would I look back? And the three biggest changes I've seen in 20 years since graduating from UTS have been that shift from technology into the fields, from the lab into the field. So significant shift of we now do a lot of analysis and detection in the field. That's been massive. What I learned at UTS taught me the foundations of how to use and interpret those results. So I was able to apply my foundational and basic knowledge to apply to that situation. Then the shift from policing in the physical communities which we spoke about into the digital world has been the other big shift and continues to shift. And then the third, which we spoke about, has been that expanded role of forensic science from policing to security in order to prevent and disrupt crime, so thinking about forensic intelligence. So I've reflected on that and what, they're three big changes in the last 20 years. But at the heart of that is the fundamental science that I was taught at university has absolutely enabled, and all the practitioners and great scientists and technologists here have been able to adapt because they've got such a solid understanding in their areas of specialisation. Then they can just pivot and adapt and move to the next challenge as long as we've got the right foundations to support them to do that with credibility and impact. So sorry, that was a bit long. Happy to pass over to the others. But it is something that we're passionate about here because we know we can't predict the future, but there's lots we can do together to make sure that we can be positioned for the future.

Claude: Yeah, thanks a lot, Sarah. Of course, you can't predict but it's all about planning. Xanthe is a course director at the university. If you can give an answer in one minute or so, that would be great.

Xanthe: I think Sarah's pretty much covered in terms of it's all about building that that foundation to begin with and just making sure that the fundamental knowledge is there. To an extent, I won't say the rest of it's window dressing, but it's really if you have that base and that base allows you to really learn new skills and be adaptive, then you're in good stead. We do sort of look at what's going on in terms of developing courses and developing new subjects. And when we do these renewal processes, start to see where the shifts in the field are. And really the only way we can do that is keeping close with our partners. So speaking to people like Sarah and other partners in New South Wales and Victoria and around the world, and that's really the best way that we can start building these future proofed or future looking courses.

Claude: Thank you very much, Sarah and Xanthe, for this quite elaborate but very important question and complicated question, but I think you managed very well. We could probably keep going for a very, very long time here, but unfortunately, we have seen it's time. First, I take this opportunity to remind everyone that the International Association of Forensic Sciences will host its next meeting in 2023 now in Sydney for the first time in Australia since 1990. This being in conjunction with the symposium of the Australian New Zealand Forensic Science Society. Please stay tuned. And well, thank you to the speakers for a very lively and informative panel discussion. Thank you for everyone who asked questions and sorry for the people who asked questions and couldn't answer. We'll do our best to type some questions in the next, in the next few days. Thank you to everyone who attended. I will post a copy of today's talk along with a Q&A session on our website very soon. And I wish you a great evening, day or night, depending on your location in our planet. And please stay safe. Thank you very much.