Recording: A spotlight on Afghanistan

 

VERITY: Thank you for joining us for today's event. The first thing I'd like to do is acknowledge wherever we are in Australia, we're on the traditional lands of First Nations peoples. This was land that was never ceded and I want to pay particular respect to the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, which is the land upon which my house is built. It also happens to be the land where the University of Technology Sydney, UTS, also stands. So I want to pay special respect to the Gadigal people as the First Nation owners and their ongoing connection to this land, waterways and culture. I would also like to extend that respect to traditional owners of the country where all of our webinar participants are on today.

 

So my name is Verity Firth. I'm the Executive Director of Social Justice here at University of Technology Sydney. I also lead our Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion, which is hosting today's event. It's my real pleasure to be here today, joined by some very distinguished guests, Dr Nematullah Bizhan, Rawan Arraf, Ali Reza Yunespour and Lala Pordeli, and I'll have a chance to introduce all of them properly in a minute.

 

I would like to acknowledge too, before we begin, that this is an incredibly challenging time and the things that we will be discussing today do have the potential to be upsetting and may cause distress or triggering. So if you do feel yourself becoming overwhelmed or distressed, please just take a break from the webinar. Just turn your camera off. Turn the sound off. You can always rejoin when you feel better later, but please don't force yourself to endure distress. If you do feel overwhelmed or distressed in any way, please speak to someone you trust or you can always contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.

 

Finally, I would also like to thank Hunar Symposia, who are our partners for today's event. Hunar are a collective of academics and artists working to decolonise knowledge of conflict through art. I would particularly like to thank Dr Bilquis Ghani, who has been instrumental in bringing everyone together today. She also happens to work at the Centre For Social Justice and Inclusion. So a big thank you to Bilquis Ghani.

 

The past fortnight has been heartbreaking. The withdrawal of international forces in Afghanistan has seen the Taliban retake the country, collapse the Afghanistan government and declare their authority. We've also seen the appearance of ISIS‑K. The speed in which all of this has unfolded has taken the world by surprise and left us scrambling to try to help with the immediate and long‑term impacts for the peoples of Afghanistan. There is no doubt that after two decades of occupation, the Allied Forces, including Australia, have a responsibility to the peoples of Afghanistan. The situation is changing by the hour and there is huge uncertainty of the coming days and future. It's a distressing time, particularly for those in Australia with loved ones and connections to Afghanistan. But there's also a lot that we can do, a lot that all of us can do, to provide humanitarian assistance as a nation, as institutions, like universities, and as individuals. What we can do now is help as many people as possible who are in immediate need and in the long term, amplified by the spotlight of media and the world's current focus on the unfolding future of Afghanistan's peoples. We need to seize this moment to really make sure that we keep that laser‑like focus on the human rights of the peoples of Afghanistan.

 

So it's my honour today, now, to introduce our panellists. The first person I will introduce is Dr Nematullah Bizhan. Dr Nematullah Bizhan is a Lecturer at the Development Policy Centre in the Crawford School of Public Policy at ANU. He is also a Senior Research Associate with Oxford University. Nematullah's research examines public policy, international development, state fragility and state building, as well as post conflict reconstruction. He has published a book, 'Aid Paradoxes In Afghanistan: Building and Undermining the State', that examines the process of state building and international intervention in Afghanistan. Nematullah contributed to development programs and reforms that helped Afghanistan's immediate post‑2001 recovery. He served as Afghanistan's Youth Deputy Minister, the Founding Director General for Policy and Monitoring of Afghanistan National Development Strategy, Head of the Secretariat for the Joint Coordination and Monitoring Board and Director General of Budget at the Ministry of Finance. Welcome, Nematullah.

 

Rawan Arraf is the Founder and Director of the Australian Centre for International Justice. Prior to setting up the ACIJ, she was a lawyer at the Refugee Advice and Casework Service, providing a wide range of protection advice to people seeking asylum in Australia, including to Afghan refugees. The Australian Centre for International Justice is a legal centre that works with affected communities and survivors of international crimes through legal action, research and advocacy, including pursuing accountability for grave crimes in Palestine, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan. The Centre's work on Afghanistan includes advancing truth, justice and accountability for Australian War Crimes in Afghanistan in close partnership with Afghan human rights organisations. Welcome, Rawan.

 

Ali Reza Yunespour is the Academic Internships Coordinator and Acting Director of Work Integrated Learning in the School of Social and Political Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He has extensive community development experience in conflict society and has helped around 8,000 students in 22 rural schools in Afghanistan through his work with Indigo Foundation Australia. Previously Ali Reza worked with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and is a Lecturer at the American University of Afghanistan in Kabul. Welcome, Ali Reza.

 

And last but not least, Lala Pordeli. Lala was born in Afghanistan in 1990 and moved to Pakistan with her family at 7 months old to escape persecution. In 1995, Lala, along with her mother and brother, were accepted as refugees to Australia where she has lived ever since and has travelled back to Afghanistan three times. Lala completed her law and international studies at UTS in 2013 and has been practising law since then, currently working in a suburban law firm and practising in the area of commercial law. Welcome, Lala.

 

So I'm actually going to start with you, Lala. You're deeply involved in the Afghan‑Australian community and you're doing incredible work in organising with that community. What is the importance of community connection right now and how are you concentrating your efforts?

 

LALA: Our efforts have been essentially focused in three different ways. Firstly, we have been trying to raise awareness. We have been targeting social media, all media platforms ‑ radio, TV ‑ trying to get people in Australia and the general public to understand what it is we are doing, what our concerns are regarding Afghanistan (inaudible). But there was a petition that had close to 150,000 organisations and individuals that have signed the petition which outlines our demands as Afghan‑Australians. Secondly, we have been getting in contact with local MPs, State MPs and Federal MPs, to try to get them to advocate and demand the change or demand the task that we want to see Australia take on board, so that's been very good. We've had a lot of positive responses and people willing to give their time to sit down with us and have these discussions, so that's been very positive. Finally, the question of raising funds, raising aid for Afghanistan. So we've had our local communities raise funds through different local organisations. We've been involved with UNHCR. I think they've raised about $4 million now and I guess it's been nice to see the community come together. Very different avenues and diverse experiences to target these kind of key areas we're concerned about.

 

VERITY: Thank you, Lala. That's really nice to see that just huge community effort on the ground, particularly that enormous amount of fundraising that has been going on. That's really great.

 

Ali Reza, Lala's work is in the community but this week you were named as a member of the Australian Government's newly formed Advisory Panel on Australia's Resettlement of Afghan Nationals. Can you talk a little bit about that and what the Advisory Panel will be working on?

 

ALI REZA: Thank you, Verity, and very good and honoured to be part of this panel. I also acknowledge our attendees here today, everyone who is, of course, concerned about Afghanistan and what's going on in that part of the world. So we are grateful for you to attend today's session. Your attendance, of course, gives us a lot of courage.

 

Yes, I have been part of the panel that the Department of Home Affairs have put to work with the Government. It's recognition of the enormous support that the Afghan community have seen in Australia in the past two weeks. The Government has put this panel to work with the Government to really do three things. One is, of course, to work out on the plans that the Government have in relation to humanitarian intakes that the Government has announced. Of course, the Government has announced an initial humanitarian intake of 3,000 visas, specifically for the Afghans. Our hope is that that will increase. This is the word that we're hearing from the Department. So the panel is working on that particular issue.

 

The second thing is, of course, the evacuation of people from Afghanistan has also exceeded many communities' expectation in my view. Yes, there were problems, there were issues, in terms of the challenges that individual evacuees, faced and we do have people who have been introduced by different organisations that are still in Kabul, but the Australian Government have evacuated about 4 thousand hundred people and, of course, those evacuees have not all arrived in Australia. From our knowledge, about 1,000 plus of them have arrived in Australia, so they need immediate assistance from the community here in Australia. Some of them are distressed. Some of them have faced persecution. Some of them, of course, have experienced trauma and they've got, of course, their loved ones in Afghanistan. So part of our role is to really assist with their settlement in Australia with their integration. That is the second role that the panel has. And, of course, we do have more than ‑ around 3,000 of those people who are still waiting in UAE and other countries to be transferred to Australia. So this is our second role.

 

Of course, the third role is really to work with the Government in terms of how to harness the community's ongoing support for the refugees and new arrivals in Australia to ensure that we provide the support for these new arrivals arriving in Australia. So that's what it is and I think the Advisory Panel ‑ I would like to emphasise that is one of the channels or avenues with the Government that we are working on and it has been really a reflection of how serious the Australian Government has taken this and we are hopeful that that will result in more settlement opportunities from people of Afghanistan.

 

VERITY: It's really good to hear, Ali Reza. I'm so pleased that there's some really serious work going on and potentially commitments to taking greater numbers. That would be wonderful. I work in a university. You work in a university, Nematullah. What can universities do to help immediately and what can we do in the longer term, going forward?

 

NEMATULLAH: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be part of the panel and also I acknowledge the participants. So what we are experiencing now in Afghanistan is a very tragic situation and already the country is experiencing an economic and political isolation and that will have implications on people having access to universities outside Afghanistan. So this is a problem in the making for Afghans.

 

Coming to the question of what the universities can do now for Afghanistan, for Afghans, at this moment to offer them an opportunity which can help with two things; first, a protection and also an opportunity to study. So that means increasing the intake of Afghan students or academics in need from Afghanistan. A challenge I see in the process would be in terms of conditions. So there should be more practical ways how to offer prospective students an opportunity to join. So that's one issue. If we see the future it is not clear with answers, then how will be the relationship of the international community with a new government in Afghanistan ‑ if it's ISIS related, not recognised, there will be implications for Afghans living in Afghanistan. For those people who are seeking to study abroad and they are eligible and they have dreams, there should be ways to accommodate them. That's one area.

 

The second one is those students who are already studying here at universities because they are experiencing trauma, it's not easy for Australians who are Afghans living overseas. Sometimes when I'm talking to them, they are suffering more than people inside Afghanistan because they are observing the situation from outside. Some of them are seeing things. I experience that. We can't sleep. We can't stop thinking about what is happening in Afghanistan and the future is not clear. Some kind of support is needed, such as counselling. In addition to that, the question is about do the Afghans who are in limbo, stuck in limbo, but yet don't have permanent protection or visas and they're not eligible to have access to support from government to study, that will be an option to let them study.

 

So, to summarise, what I wanted to share here was there could be three pathways that we can help Afghans or students in this situation, where universities can play a role to increase the intakes and make the conditions easier. The second one is how to provide support to those who are already studying at universities. The third one is what about those living in limbo and if they would like to study but they're eligible, they should be given an opportunity to study. Saying that, it will be a challenging and difficult process that there is widespread, I mean, solidarity for Afghanistan, its people, at the moment. We need to show it in action.

 

VERITY: Thanks for that, Nematullah. I totally agree. Just so people are aware, I know that UTS ‑ of course, we run a Humanitarian ScholarshipPprogram which is for students that are currently on Australian soil but will be on temporary protection visas or non‑permanent visas and who therefore can't access HECS and need to pay international fees. So UTS has a humanitarian scholars program. I know other universities have similar arrangements. So if you are online and if you know Afghan nationals who are in Australia or on temporary visas, there are opportunities at the universities to apply for those scholarships. I agree. There's also an organisation called Scholars At Risk, which is universities coming together to provide opportunities as a sector. So please also check that out.

 

So, Rawan, what role do you think international pressure will play on ensuring Afghans' safety? I think in some ways this is a moment to really be able to capitalise on really strong community support for Afghan peoples. Do you think international pressure might influence Australia to change its tune both on those in Australia on temporary protection visas but also potentially, as Ali has already raised, the boosting of visa intake?

 

RAWAN: Thank you so much, Verity, for that acknowledgment of Country and I also want to acknowledge my privilege to be on this panel of Afghan‑Australians. As we know, they've been the absolute force behind the immense public pressure and public opinion that we've seen really shift the conversation and apply the pressure on governments. I think it's hard not to feel despondent about the lack of international pressure but I'm feeling encouraged by that public pressure and the public opinion. That's where I think we can force the public pressure where people can join actions that are being demanded by the Afghan‑Australian community and the diaspora abroad in pushing the Government for action. In relation to that despondency, last week the Human Rights Council failed in its obligation to Afghan human rights and Afghan civilians, the people in Afghanistan, when it failed to secure what Afghan civil society and Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission were demanding, which was a big fact‑finding mission to investigate the human rights violations that we are seeing. So that's kind of part of the absolute failure in the international pressure.

 

Where we can create that international pressure, again as I said, is through public pressure. And in relation to the Afghans in Australia on temporary protection visas, one of the demands being put forward by the community, including being supported by a huge number of civil society organisations, is to grant permanent protection for those 5,100 Afghans in Australia that are currently on temporary protection. Surely we can't expect them to remain with so much uncertainty, particularly now at the time that they're grieving with family abroad. There's so much uncertainty that they've lived through in the last 10 or so years. I think that's incumbent now on the Government to really do that as one of the first things that they do in actions going forward.

 

I just wanted to acknowledge also that predominantly, of those 5,100 Afghan refugees, they come from the Hazaras community and we're seeing increasing risk of crimes against the Hazaras particularly in Afghanistan but also Hazaras activists and legal experts have really warned about a potential genocide as well. So I think the public really needs to maintain the pressure and that's how we force international community to step up.

 

VERITY: That really does seem like a no‑brainer, converting those temporary protection visas to proper visas because there is no way you could argue that it's only temporary protection and they could return now. I think that's something we all should be lobbying for. Nematullah, in terms of the international aid and fundraising that's going on through channels like the UNHCR, do you think that those sorts of channels, that bodies like the UNHCR, will be able to provide the humanitarian assistance needed?

 

NEMATULLAH: What we have had in Afghanistan is a high level of dependency on foreign aid. About 50% of the government budget in the past was funded through aid from US and other countries, including Australia. But now after the takeover of Afghanistan by the Taliban, the situation is quite different and it's not any more an option to put the aid money through the Government Budget. The alternative is going through humanitarian organisations because what we are experiencing in Afghanistan is a humanitarian crisis, but also coming to refugees and displaced people, so that's another area of major concern. UNHCR is a major organisation, so that can be an option to put more money through UNHCR, so concerning the humanitarian refugees coming from Afghanistan to provide them with support and protection and also to facilitate their cases to be processed as soon as possible because the process is quite bureaucratic. It takes ages, and especially the current situation in Afghanistan is entirely different. If you go to this highly bureaucratised system, it will take a long time. That's one option. But also we need to be mindful that the mandate of UNHCR is limited. There should be other ways, more flexible ways, to attend to the needs of Afghan refugees here or if you think back to Afghanistan, of displaced people or those at great risk. So, basically, the focus should be on multi ‑ I would call it ‑ institutional approach for putting more money or giving money to UNHCR, but that could be targeted, more focussing than putting funding to an organisation. It should be clearly earmarked for what purpose. But also to open the space or give opportunity to other humanitarian organisations to play a major role because coming to that capacity of UNHCR, the question is whether it has a capacity to attend the needs in this critical situation that Afghans are facing in Afghanistan or around the world. Saying that, what I would like to add is, yes, UNHCR will remain a major player but also other institutions should be encouraged to play a role in dealing with the crisis of Afghan refugees at the moment.

 

VERITY: So, Lala, in terms of the work that you're doing in the community right now, are you receiving the external support that the community needs?

 

LALA: (Inaudible) various organisations (inaudible) external support for the time that they have given and the expertise that they have had. There have been a number of organisations that have reached out to provide volunteer services for people that are going to make humanitarian visa applications, for example. I have a close friend of mine who has started the Afghan ‑ the crisis hub online and people can volunteer to assist with that.

 

So from an individual and public perspective, we definitely have had a lot of support. There's been many organisations that have also signed the petition, the change.org petition, showing their support. However, our key aim is to get change that comes about through government policies and it's at that level that we really have not received any support. I think (inaudible) have already been discussed but especially with humanitarian intake, similar to what Canada has offered and Australia has done for Syria in the past, (inaudible). I am not being rude or anything but I would say that the Australian Government has really just failed in that respect. There hasn't been any assistance there and overall there needs to be a greater, I guess, compassion from the Government level for those visas. The 3,000 spaces that were allocated were part of the humanitarian intake, so that has just been shifted to Afghanistan. So other people now don't have access to that. So from a government perspective, we really feel that there needs to be more action and our concerns need to be heard better because that's where we find there's been no real support or action that's come about.

 

VERITY: Sorry about that. I just had a home issue.

 

LALA: That's OK.

 

VERITY: That's really interesting and I think you're dead‑on about the Government. There have been other humanitarian crises that have happened around the world where we have seen immediate response from the Government in terms of increases in humanitarian intake and I think all of us need to take collective responsible for calling on the Government to do that in this case as well.

 

Ali Reza, you also work with the Indigo Foundation. Now, the Indigo Foundation, I know them well actually. They're a wonderful organisation. They've been partnering with communities in Afghanistan for the past 20 years. Especially when you think about what Nematullah has just told us, that we can't any more necessarily go through government channels in terms of providing financial aid, what are some of the challenges of providing humanitarian assistance, particularly when you're not going via government channels but through humanitarian NGOs?

 

ALI REZA: Thank you, Verity. And I think that's really a timely question because we, as I said at the beginning, are here to help refugees and people who flee Afghanistan and that's wonderful, I think that's a good thing, but I think the roots of this challenge still and will remain in Afghanistan. We've got the population ‑ we don't have clear statistics but at least about 25 to 35 million people, different estimates, but those are still in Afghanistan. The humanitarian crisis is growing in the country. For the context, Afghanistan is the poorest per capita country in Asia in terms of the level of poverty that we are speaking about. 2.5 million people displaced, about 12 million or more than 12 million are actually hungry, and reports that we're getting from the people are that they're running out of cash. They have no resources to support their families. And in many ways, I could argue that people who make their way to neighbouring countries like Pakistan and Iran and those who definitely have left through the airport, they're the lucky ones, and I think the ones who are suffering are still in Afghanistan and this is why I think it is an important time for the world and, of course, for the international community and, of course, everyone here to consider what could be done for the people of Afghanistan inside Afghanistan.

 

The challenges we are facing now are not so much a philosophical question of whether it should go to Afghanistan or not. I think there are clear messages we are getting from around the world that, yes, the people of Afghanistan should be supported. We are facing political and technical challenges. The first political challenge is that we don't have a recognised government inside Afghanistan that has the control of the geography and effectively have come into power by military force and, of course, outside Afghanistan in the embassies, we still have many countries who consider the representative of the so‑called previous government still as representative of Afghanistan. So the question would be even if we go through the UN channels, how do you ensure that this representative who would speak on behalf of the previous government or the people of Afghanistan ‑ how would that reconcile on the ground with a force that don't recognise all of them?

 

So this is a political challenge. It needs an urgent attention because with the Taliban, it's not just about forming an inclusive government. They are still on the UN sanction list. They're on the UN sanction list as an organisation but we also have the Taliban on the UN sanction list as individual members of the Taliban. So this is a challenge now for humanitarian organisations to even be able to send any money to Afghanistan. A practical challenge is that Australia bans sending money or allowing an organisation to send money to Afghanistan, to an organisation, to anyone in Afghanistan that directly or indirectly benefits anyone of the Taliban members. It is basically considered as a crime for that organisation. So in this context, yes, these things have happened. I mean, for the context of Afghanistan, it's not a new thing. Women's issues are not a new thing. Humanitarian crisis has been going on all the time there. But the political and these technical problems that we face, it's an enormous barrier for any humanitarian assistance to get to Afghanistan. It is not just for larger organisations in the sector that, of course, deliver official aids from Australian Government and other governments in the world. It is also barriers for organisations like Indigo, which is an ACFID‑registered organisation, and we have to comply with counter‑terrorism laws and regulations that Australia that has in place to ensure that whoever is supporting Afghanistan is those who really deserve our aid.

 

The other challenge we've got with the Taliban is it is not a unitary group. Even if some of it will be out of the sanction list, they still have very strong links with al‑Qa'ida. The UN report in June, for example, confirmed that 15 of 34 provinces of Afghanistan had presence of al‑Qa'ida members. Al‑Qa'ida have also provided logistic and financial support to the Taliban and continue to do that. So it is very important that unless that tie is really broken, it is very hard for the world to even recognise the Taliban. So the options here are, on the one hand, we're facing a deepening humanitarian crisis on the ground and, on the other hand, a political problem that is a barrier to do anything for the people of Afghanistan. So I hope that an urgent action could be taken at the political level and, most importantly, by the major powers at the UN Security Council.

 

VERITY: That's really interesting. The top question in our questions from our audience is from Shera Sagan. She's asking exactly that question, about how to get money into Afghanistan to actually help the people on the ground. So what you're saying is it's actually very difficult for organisations at the moment because the Taliban are on the UN sanctioned list, but what about individuals to individuals or family members to family? Are you able to do that?

 

ALI REZA: People aren't able to send some money, very limited amount, and it's partly because I have been talking with traders on the ground, I have been talking with financial agencies, and the problem is that the banks are closed and the limited money that they had in Afghanistan, that has been either at the hands of someone whose shop is now closed. And so we've got family members and relatives who have sent money about two weeks ago but their family members have not received that yet in Afghanistan. And the other issue is that the currency in Afghanistan is collapsing very rapidly and it's partly because the US has blocked the Afghan Reserve. IMF has blocked Afghanistan's emergency fund and World Bank has stopped its support and aid for Afghanistan. So the currency is losing its value very rapidly, and, in fact, for the people on the ground, it means that inflation is skyrocketing. So it is a huge challenge on the ground and, unfortunately, major technical but financial and political problems for us to support even our family members in Afghanistan.

 

VERITY: That's incredibly difficult. We might return to that when we go back to the questions. But, Rawan, what do we need to do to ensure that the international forces are held accountable for their intervention and time spent in the country, including crimes perpetrated against Afghan people, because this is a really classic case really, isn't it, of the role of international forces over the last 20 years and what's happened in Afghanistan?

 

RAWAN: Yes, I think it's a really important question. Obviously the priority now needs to be humanitarian assistance and actions to protect safety for Afghans at risk. But I think it's important to make a point about the need for accountability and to support the accountability process. We can do that by supporting truth telling. That includes supporting public interest journalism, the courageous whistle blowers from within the Special Forces in Australia that came out and are speaking up. And, of course, the work that we are doing with Afghan human rights organisations and victims. I have just finished reading the remarkable new book by Mark Willacy 'Rogue Forces', which includes voices and accounts from Afghan victims and family members who years after the incidents happened to them that took and claimed the lives of their family members are still seeking accountability and justice. And so I think it's important to note here that it includes the voices of brave individuals from within Special Forces, as I said, that came out and have testified and want to testify. And we should support this process. Of course, crimes by all actors, including, of course, the Taliban, and we know that the International Criminal Court has an investigation at the moment that is open in Afghanistan but, as I said now, of course, everybody now is working towards the priority of the humanitarian crisis.

 

But it's important to I think acknowledge what you said, Verity, about transitional justice. Afghan victims, Afghan human rights defenders, have been saying for years that the lack of accountability and a culture of impunity has really defined the conflict in Afghanistan and has led to the consequences that we're seeing today ‑ instability for years on end. One of the organisations that we work with, the Afghanistan Human Rights and Democracy Organisation ‑ the Executive Director, Hadi Marifat, said it really well last year before the Australian media, following the release of the Brereton report. He said accountability and investigations should have a transformative impact on all actors in the conflict and the lack of ‑ and the culture of impunity has really prevented that. Again, as I said, it has seen us where we are today.

 

I just want to quote really quickly from a joint civil society letter that we wrote to the Brereton Inquiry last year. A quote from the Afghanistan Transitional Justice Coordination Group, which includes a huge number of Afghan human rights coalitions and human rights defenders. They said the Afghan people have remained trapped in an unbroken cycle of a 40‑year‑long conflict which is profoundly rooted in a culture of impunity, with many actors operating in total disregard of local and international law and norms in the firm belief that nobody will ever hold them accountable. That's why I still think we should maintain our support for accountability for truth telling and for justice.

 

VERITY: The culture of the last 20, 30, 40 years has been unaccountability of all actors in the space. It is a really good point to make. I have a good question for the panellists but I might ask that at the end because I want to get some of our audience questions answered. The one that is currently sitting on the top of the list is one from Vivian Porsalt, who is asking: the picture of the country under the Northern Alliance pre‑Taliban is presented as relatively rosy, including for women. How accurate is this? Who would like to have a go at answering that? Ali, you're nodding up and down. Do you want to answer that?

 

ALI REZA: Yes, and I might start. I'm sure Dr Nematullah Bizhan will have more to say about this. The challenges for women of Afghanistan has been a historical problem. Every regime that Afghanistan has been in place, not just 40 years but even prior to that, have failed the women of Afghanistan and it has been a challenge for some time. That includes the 1980s and the 1990s when the initial war broke and initially against the anti‑Soviet regime but also even in villages where different political groups fought with each other for power. The true victims of those were women of Afghanistan and that was true even when the majority in government came in power in Kabul. It was quite a challenging time. During the civil war in Kabul, for example, there were reports of mistreatment of women, sexual violence against women, and, of course, the poor treatment of women in Afghanistan during those years of war in Kabul, but also, of course, when the Taliban came in, what had happened was we had an institutionalised, ideological approach to segregate women. I think there needs to be a difference between these two key things. There is an institutional effort to exclude women and there are consequences of civil war and policies on the ground.

 

So during the Taliban, we had an institutionalised policy and that is what is the fear of people now. It is not that we had good periods for the women of Afghanistan and bad periods. It is more about this institutionalised effort to segregate women, and that is what distinguished Taliban from other groups largely in Afghanistan. But within those political groups who were involved in the civil war, they were also not a unitary group in relation to how to treat women. For example, we had more moderate groups who were in support of women. For example, some of them have established universities for Afghan refugees in Pakistan. They established schools, for example, for Afghan refugees and some of these students, both men and women, attended those schools. But when it came to the treatment of them during the civil war, they all had a really negative role to play to affect the women of Afghanistan.

 

I would also like to highlight another report from as late as 2009. It was a really interesting report by UNMR during those years that we believe that the Afghan women's lives had changed as a result of the new government that came after the Berne Conference in 2001. This report is called Silence is Violence. And I think that even as late as 2009, they were showing how horrific, how difficult life in Afghanistan for women and girls were, and, of course, since 2018/19, when the insurgency grew, which the Taliban played a key role in that, Afghanistan have always been in the top three or four countries as the most dangerous place for women and girls in Afghanistan. So it has been a really, really challenging history and, of course, the victims of this have been women and girls in Afghanistan. This is why I think regime change doesn't change so much in Afghanistan because those institutions, the governments and the culture, it's very hard to change the situation for the women of Afghanistan just as a result of changing a regime in Afghanistan.

 

VERITY: Lala, I can see you have something to say.

 

LALA: Yes, I think Ali raised some really, really good points. I think one of the things I would like to kind of maybe talk about is in relation to women, I think, as Ali said, it's an ideological change which completely restricts women. So the last 20 years has allowed women to actually get an education and we're not talking about every part of Afghanistan, but you've got areas in Afghanistan such as Herat, where there's a greater percentage of women at university than males, up until now. So I think there's some key opportunities allowed under any regime which doesn't segregate women and doesn't restrict women from public life and it's very important in the long run.

 

My Aunty went back to Afghanistan in 2002 and she was a qualified doctor. She's been able to in the last 20 years help lots of women in remote areas that suffer from complications after birth. This is a service that was never provided and wasn't allowed because women weren't allowed to work. So whilst 100% the situation in Afghanistan has never been one that's great, we have to acknowledge that it's been a war‑torn country for the last 40 years and there's only so much we can expect of any regime in dealing with women's rights. We in the Western world struggle with equal pay and women's rights, harassment and harassment at work, let alone a country that's gone through war, but I think there's a key distinguishing factor, that women were given opportunities in the last 20 years, they were given freedom, the ability to get an education, and that was just the beginning. We've now come to a system where the Taliban are saying, "You can only have women at university in segregated classes". Are there going to be enough female teachers to teach women? Most likely not. So essentially what you're saying is if there's no teachers to teach women, there's no classes for women. It's this system that creates the problem and now we're just going to go back to where we were 20 years ago. This is the distressing part of it all.

 

VERITY: Yes. Nematullah, do you want to add anything to that?

 

NEMATULLAH: I echo what Lala and Ali Reza mentioned. I just want to add that on the international part of women's role in Afghanistan, and for the kids, and particularly during the Cold War, Western powers funded programs and projects which led to the repression of women in Afghanistan. So what we see now as happening in Afghanistan in a systematic matter, where the state is used as a means to exclude women, to repress women, that was not something happening overnight. So if we look back and investigate what happened during the Cold War, so we can link it. So that's the sad part on the international side of ‑ I mean, all the projects of conflict and peace‑building in Afghanistan.

 

Also, what I would like to add as a final statement is that the Afghan society has been transformed in the last two decades. So we don't have the same society when the Taliban regime collapsed today. So the society will be making the demand, and there will be a conflict between the Taliban and society and the Taliban needs to recognise a transformed society and listen to them.

 

VERITY: So I'm going to now move back to getting to the Afghanistan point because I think people really do want to wrestle with this. Paul White in the audience has also asked: what is the solution to resolving the sanction issues and moving cash? Should sanctions now be taken off all those Taliban on the list? Do we actually need as an international ‑ because it does seem ‑ it's that thing, isn't it, right, that if the UN sanctions are actually preventing on‑the‑ground assistance to people who are living in poverty, that is a problem, although I recognise the political reasons why you'd want to keep the Taliban as a sanctioned organisation. I might start with Rawan, if you're able ‑‑

 

RAWAN: It's a difficult one for me to answer at this point. I think I'm going to defer to the other Afghans on the panel. I mean, our work revolves around advocacy for targeted sanctions and Winitzki‑style sanctions, but I have seen the concern from Afghan communities about the impacts on Afghan people as a whole. So I don't have an answer to that but perhaps the other panellists do.

 

VERITY: It's a really complicated one because it comes up in all of these sorts of situations internationally when the despotic government means there are sanctions that apply but then people suffer and how do you get the balance right, I suppose. Ali Reza, you have turned your microphone on. That always suggests you have something to say.

 

ALI REZA: Yes, and I should say here that lots of work is now going on for that particular issue in terms of how to deal with sanctions. I attended, for example, a meeting yesterday with DFAT alongside with other ACFID‑registered organisations who have staff in Afghanistan who are delivering programs. One thing to note here is that even if this sanction issue concerns for a while, the UN has been able to provide ‑ and other agencies, international agencies ‑ have been able to work out their way to support the people in other parts of the world in similar circumstances. So it is not unique to Afghanistan. We have a similar situation in Somalia, for example, not particularly similar but at least some resentment or shared resentment in Yemen, for example, in Syria, in other parts of the world. So it is important that the UN have been able to do this for some time in some of those really difficult social‑political contexts.

 

So the hope now from the international NGO and, of course, the local organisations like Indigo Foundation who work on the ground is that there will be some way to go around this, even if the sanctions will be still in place by the UN Security Council, because that is a political issue that requires a consensus by the major powers to be removed. And then there are also special country sanctions. For example, Australia doesn't have any specific sanctions from Australian Government against the Taliban but the US Government does have those. So there will be issues around this and I think this will be an ongoing conversation, but I am aware of lots of activities that are at the moment going on. Whether that would be resolved in the coming weeks or months, we don't know and I think that all depends on what will happen with those political negotiations that happen within Afghanistan but also outside Afghanistan in relation to the new government.

 

VERITY: And Nematullah?

 

NEMATULLAH: Coming to the international leverage, which still seems relevant, concerning the situation in Afghanistan, the leverage is now limited but what still they can do is two mechanisms. One is international recognition, which seems to be quite important for the new government in Afghanistan, and the second one is the financial aid to Afghanistan. Both can help to maintain or preserve some of the gains which Afghanistan achieved in the last two decades, including the preservation of the fundamental rights of citizens in Afghanistan, including women. So that is an area. But now the problem is a lack of clarity and consensus in the international community. So what we see is a process that is taking region versus global powers in Afghanistan, and the question is how regional powers ‑ China, Pakistan, Russia, Iran ‑ can play a role to fill a gap which will be left by the US and NATO in Afghanistan. We are not yet clear. We will not be able to substitute for the loss of (inaudible) Afghanistan, but the question is if sanctions are to be imposed on Afghanistan, even the new government in Afghanistan will not be able to capitalise on China's investment in Afghanistan for extraction of natural resources in Afghanistan, or transit between central and south Asia because these companies will not be able to invest in the country, and the result will be suffering of people from poverty, hunger and also political isolation. People will be locked in in Afghanistan, as is happening now. People cannot travel to neighbouring countries, and that's why we are witnessing the tragedy of Kabul airport. That was the only hope for people to get access to outside Afghanistan or to go outside Afghanistan.

 

VERITY: Yes. Alright. Now, I'm mindful of the time. We have three minutes before we need to unfortunately end this webinar. It's been a really great discussion. I want to thank all our panellists. So I might conclude by asking a question of each of you. I'm going to start with you, Lala, because you're the community activist on the panel. There is such momentum at the moment within the Australian community. There's actually a real awareness of the issues in Afghanistan and people really do want to help. How do we avoid, particularly around COVID and everything, a sense of political fatigue on Afghanistan in the near future and how do we work together to maintain Australia's energy and awareness in an ongoing way so that we harness this momentum?

 

LALA: That's definitely been a talking point, even amongst us as a community, because our concern is that I guess with Australia leaving ‑ essentially all Forces leaving by 31 August, this news will be kind of old news now and the Taliban have officially now taken over and is it going to be relevant? So we have definitely tried to keep some presence in the media reporting, but I guess essentially, put simply, we've got a government in power that has already breached so many of the key promises they've made during peace negotiations or discussions with the US. They said they would allow the Haqqani Network to grow within Afghanistan, but Haqqani Network has now taken over Kabul and its security. There are clear breaches that have occurred and it is like no‑one is listening. So I think for us we just need to make those breaches, and every time things do happen, make the public aware, we need to have the campaign continue. And for Australians who are not from an Afghan background, we sent soldiers to Afghanistan. We have had a direct connection there and have been able to see over the last 20 years, there's been so much that has happened back and forth. The Brereton report got released. So I think that there is a connection and we just need to stay connected potentially through continued communication between our communities and the general public and just raising awareness with the media. But it's a hard question to answer because we really don't know.

 

VERITY: Thanks for that. Now, we're right on 12.30, so if I could just ask our other panellists to be brief. Rawan, you have turned your mic on. How do we maintain momentum?

 

RAWAN: I think we have to work with the Afghan diaspora and communities that will be coming from Afghanistan, particularly from my perspective and somebody working in human rights. I think my colleague in the chat was talking about the significant work that was underway in the last several years in Afghanistan to address the legacy, to document crimes, to preserve the memory of victims of crimes. So I think working with Afghan human rights defenders and groups in the community that end up settling here, we should continue this work. It is important work. It is part of transitional justice and truth telling and I think the Afghan people are working for it and they deserve as much.

 

VERITY: Thank you, Rawan. Nematullah?

 

NEMATULLAH: We need to keep the dialogue going on. We need to keep the public informed and we need to bring more people from the ground to talk and inform us and, more importantly, try to fill the gap with the solidarity we have at the community level and also the government policies.

 

VERITY: And last but not least, Ali Reza?

 

ALI REZA: I suggest that I think it's important that we engage and engage and engage with Afghanistan. I think it's really important ‑ and engage with the people of Afghanistan. I think it's really important on the ground and I think that will keep the momentum here and, of course, here we've got, as Rawan mentioned earlier, a large refugee population from Afghanistan, and a large number of them are without a visa, on bridging visas. My hope is that each and every one of us could write to our MPs, to our Ministers, ask them to please help them and help their families. This is the least Australia could do for someone who has actually lived nearly 10 years here. So those are the things that come to mind to keep the momentum because they are in our community.

 

VERITY: Thank you. That's a perfect way to end the webinar. Thank you all, to all of our panellists. That was a really difficult but important discussion and you were all great. I notice also in the Q&A panel there's a lot of links there for people who are interested in assistance. There's links to scholarship programs. There's links to different organisations that are coordinating assistance. So please feel free to use this opportunity to reach out to others and particularly if you want to help. And last but not least, please stay safe, everyone. Maintain momentum. I think that's a really good point. We really do want as Australians to accept the responsibility of our actions in Afghanistan over the last 20 years and to make sure that we make reparations and that we're actually able to be a country committed to human rights and to doing the right thing by people. So thanks again and I'll see you all soon and stay safe.

 

ALI REZA: Thank you, colleagues.

 

NEMATULLAH: Thank you.