Recording: International Women’s Day with Lydia Williams

Thank you so much. I would allow -- I would now like to invite Professor Karen O?Connell, Dr Leila Khanjaninejad and Jane Fernandez to the stage to the stage for a panel discussion, hold your applause. 

Dr Leila Khanjaninejad is a Lecturer in Creative Intelligence and Innovation in the UTS Transdisciplinary School. Her research focuses on gender inclusion in male dominated spaces. Welcome, Leila. Jane Fernandez is one of the leading administrators and general manager for Rugby World Cup Australia. She recently led the successful bid to host the FIFA Women's World Cup 23 three as Chief Operating Officer. She was instrumental in its success and is also a UTS business School alumni. Welcome, Jane. 

An Professor Karen O'Connell works at the UTS Law Faculty and has over 20 years experience working on gender equality and sexist issues in human rights practice and academia. Welcome, Karen. 

There will be an opportunity during the panel discussion to ask questions of today's speakers. We are facilitating a Q&A through Slido which means you can submit your questions whether you are here in person or online. So, go to the link in the slides which we are also posting for all of you joining us virtually. 

You can upload questions that others have asked. And please try to keep the questions relevant to the topics we are discussing today. 

So, thank you so much for joining this conversation, Lydia, thank you so much for that. It was incredibly inspiring. I want to start, though, by offering our panellists a moment to talk about their work and how it relates to today's theme. Karen, we might start with you. 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

Thanks, Amy. My work is on human rights and disc and law and I think when people hear that they often imagine someone going into court, the law books, making arguments in a court which is really important. 

I do something a bit different, that is our use research to try and make the best equality laws we can. So, I do have a focus Engender Equality and Sextus. -- In gender equality and sex discrimination and that is relevant to sport because there are so many issues that come up in sport but are about quality and dissemination. -- Equality. 

It is also important that those laws are used for gender equality for everyone because in the past we have had gender equality laws that have worked more for privileged women than other women. So, intersectionality is a big part of my work too. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane? 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

I have worked in sport and major sports events since the 2000 Olympic Games, showing my age! I have always had the strong belief in the power of support -- sport to drive social change. We can see that through social programs and the Olympic Games but focusing on football, when we started bidding to host the FIFA Women's World Cup, we always knew we had this amazing opportunity and sports bring people together. There is a beautiful term I heard called collective effervescence and I think it captures it so well. 

We come together, we celebrate, but we also learn and that is why I love doing what I do. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Leila? 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

I am passionate about gender equality and inclusion and creating a safe space for everyone. My work is mostly focused on how we can really explore and break down barriers for specifically women in sport because it is a very strong platform for bringing positive change, considering the very sport driven culture we have here in Australia. 

So, as I said, my work is focused on exploring and breaking down barriers in women's sport and bringing lasting, positive change for creating an inclusive and equitable environment. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Thank you so much. I am going to ask you, Jane, I reflected in my opening remarks about that period in 2023 ? and Lydia, you touched on what a transformative moment that was, I mean, you were a mastermind of that whole endeavour. 

Were you surprised by that nationwide hype and the Matildas effect? And what do you think contributed to that tournament's success? 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

When we started bidding, we always believed the FIFA Women's World Cup would be something amazing and special. The journey started in 2017 and at that point in time the biggest crowd The Matildas had was about 17,000 people attending a match. 

As part of a bidding process we commissioned a social and economic impact report one of the big four did it, and they said you would properly get about 600,000 people attending the FIFA Women's World Cup, and we were like, "You are wrong, make --mate," as we rounded off the start, we had 2 million people attend. Did we think it would get to that level? I think back in 2017 we hoped, we believed, but the proof was not yet there. 

There had never been, and this was the problem with the report, the data was not there. But we had a strong belief. During we created they get onside campaign, close to 1 million people signed up because they wanted the World Cup to be here. We spent a lot of time putting the brand of The Matildas, did great storytelling and created this authentic connection to the team. 

So, by the time we run -- won the rights to host, we had an amazing platform to take further. For the tournament we created an amazing culture brand, intersection between sport, music, art, culture, which meant everyone felt welcome and felt they had a connection to The Matildas. But we also ran this amazing multicultural program. 

I don't know if any of you were in the stands at any of the Colombian matches, but they were absolutely phenomenal. We had one game, it was a Tuesday, lunchtime when we were doing the match schedule, we thought, how are we going to sell the crowd? It was like every Colombian took the day off work. It was like a public holiday for them, it was amazing. This was the energy that carried do the whole tournament. 

Kicking it off with a sold out Matildas V Island was a perfect way to start with 73,000 people are strict -- in Australia. 

This was the perfect time, we talked about bidding for 2019 which was held in France but I think it was a gift we actually waited. Because I think people were ready and people wanted it and wanted to find an opportunity to come together to celebrate. And we provided them with that. We also ensured another really key ingredient was making sure the ticket prices were available and accessible. 

We wanted to make sure families could come together and really have this amazing experience and thankfully, we achieved that. 

AMY PERSSON: 

I was lucky enough to go to a game and, you know, I have been to a couple of other sporting matches in my time, but I have never felt as ? I have never felt such a part of a friendly, inclusive crowd. And it was such a wonderful mix of men, women, and children that created this really lovely atmosphere, whereas I think for some women, going to watch other games can be a bit uneasy. 

And I just think you did a great job in cultivating that. 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

It was interesting hearing your story because we had this group we called the convince of all is --convincables. They were proud Australians, love to celebrate, never have been to a football match, sport was so-so but we convinced you! It worked. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Absolutely, and I ask you a little bit more about that experience, Lydia? Were you surprised by the hype? During that time? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

I think seeing how other World Cup's had been one -- run and since being a part of 2007, now I am showing my age, it has always been such an amazing experience and living in Europe and seeing how that is just embedded in their culture, it was like, I think what Jane reiterated, we hoped and believed but had no idea that it would even , like, reach the heights it had. 

The facts in 2015 we had one Australian reporter come over and report and we were like, OK, this is really cool, awesome! They flew all the way to Canada. And now it is like the hype is real. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Leila, I'm going to bring you into the conversation, you recently did research into women's surfing in Australia. Can you talk to us about that work? And also share the most effective strategies from your perspective for promoting women's participation in -- and inclusion in male dominated sports. Because surfing is really a male dominated sport steel, right? 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

Definitely, it is. It is fantastic to see what happened to The Matildas, they came a very, very long way. And for surfing, we still have a very long way to go. We have been seeing so much significant advancement in the past few years. We have equal prize money at the global stage with the world surfing league 2018. 

It took a little bit of time for Australia to catch up, in 2021 we had similar equal prize money at the Australian level and last year we have heard New South Wales announcing that equal prize money at the state level. 

We have been witnessing so much investment in talent, so much great initiatives happening, strategies for engaging community level and engaging a grassroots level, which are all fantastic things that are happening. Like, we have the Ocean Queen Classic, the She Electrics, 1 million federal funds now investing in the new ways ? make waves of female surfboard riders which avail -- which are very sustainable strategies to use for lasting progression in women's sports, specifically in surfing. 

But, despite all of these, surfing, as you said, is very much male dominated and a very multigenerational activity as well. So there is still a lot of structural and cultural barriers that are going on and we really need to have more investment going on in the next decade (laughs) maybe. To see a little bit more of a quality -- equality for women servers. 

I can give you some examples of the cultural barriers there because for example, the objectification of women's bodies is something that is extremely common. It is common in women sport, but it is very common in surfing. 

There is a historical unequal dispersion ? make this tradition of resources. For example, at club level, we are still having women servers that have to set up on Sands while their male counterparts have specific, proper locations with parking stop -- spot. 

These are tiny examples we are still seeing these days, and it is not an example from the 90s or 20 years ago, it is happening now. And at the structural level, we have underrepresentation of women surfers. The competitions ? the level of competitions, the comparison between men, we have 22 compared to 10 women at the competition level at the Surfing Link -- league. There are so much cultural barriers impeding women and serving to the point we cannot claim we are very close to gender equity and we really need to continue all of the things happening, like what happened with The Matildas, all of the advocacy still going on with great surfers like Tyler Wright and others that are doing it in surfing. 

And we are very hopeful that we are going to get there because all of this is going to continue. In the very first important steps have been taken by having those equal prize money in place and all of those initiatives at the top level. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Karen, embedded in law, female athletes superstars who are household names and who have changed the face of sport. There are lots and lots of other female athletes out there. Can you share some of the discriminatory hurdles that women athletes have had to overcome to get to where we are now and possibly still overcoming, it sounds like? 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

We have talked today about the joy of seeing the Matildas perform and the joy of team sport, I think a lot of the reasons we might watch sport is to see persistence and grit and strength and determination and ultimately glory, they are all also there in that aspect of the story that Lydia raised, fighting or advocating for equality. 

There are so many stories over the last 25 years that I think sit underneath all of our sporting glory, stories that we don't really know, where people have successfully fought or fought and lost but in a valiant way, to try to get equal rights. 

In that time, that has included for example, it used to be illegal for women to box in NSW. We had a case where a woman fought for the right to box, she didn't win at that point but it was a valiant fight. We had a blanket ban for netballers to compete while pregnant, that was a case that was fought  and won. 

In the box in case it was a stereotype, that was not an appropriate thing for women to do. Often a woman's reproductive role can be used against them, they can't play sport if they can also make babies. There has been fight for access to clubs and fields, times on golf courses, fights for a sport to be valued, for there to be equal prize money or pay. 

Across all the ways women have fought in the other parts of life or equality, those fights for access against stereotypes and structural barriers to do their work and also their work to be valued. We have seen that across so many sports. And across many years. I think there are such great stories and I wish people knew them. It is hard for people to denigrate women sport if they knew these heroic stories that have happened off the field as well is on the field. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Do you have a perspective on the next big frontier from a legal perspective in this space? 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

I have a lot of hope for sport in Australia. I think it is a space where so much of our national identity and gender identity gets played out. We are at the tip of the iceberg. We have started to see really great games, but I think to really include women, all women, into some of our ideas about what our national sporting identity is, would just be exciting. 

I would love to see some of those sports and also national concepts of mateship, a fair go, an equal playing field, of supporting the underdog, I would love to see them come to fruition because they are ideas that are embedded in the Australian nation but also in the Australian sporting identity that has never really had true effect. 

I think there is so far to go. It is hard to pinpoint one of those issues because we are still fighting stereotypes and getting equal access and trying to truly value women's sport. You can pick any area, there is so much to do as an athlete, as someone who works in sport or as someone who is in the crowd, there is so much that can be done in every one of those areas. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane, do you want to follow up on that? You are working closely on the Rugby World Cup, which has a men's and women's component, do you have reflections on women's rugby? 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

When I was talking about 2017 being the starting point, I feel like that is where we are in relation to women's rugby. Not so much the sevens, the seven skills have a strong brand, they won a gold medal in Rio at the Olympic Games, they are doing amazing things on the world stage. But the 15s format, we now have a great opportunity which world cups provide on home soil to start storytelling and creating the brand building on what has started and RA are doing a great job in banging the drum, the partnership with World Rugby meeting we can tell these stories by funding the stories in camps when they have them. 

It is a step up approach but I believe we will get there and I think in 29 there will be another tournament that takes us by surprise. I think the momentum behind these tournaments is there. It really started with the women's cricket just before COVID, the MCG almost sold out and that started the momentum behind women sporting events. Sadly COVID put a D dent entine and it was great to see it come back for us. 

We have the women's Asian cup next year, sports sponsors and partners want to get on board as well. 

AMY PERSSON: 

One of the things I reflected on during the World Cup, you would come across blokes who would say things like, "Yeah, they play better than I thought, the women's game has really improved." Is that true, that it has really improved in football or rugby? Or is that bullshit and we are watching it and taking it seriously? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

I think there is more education around it, having the eyes and the opportunity around it, you can watch the Matildas play overseas and their club teams, I think football players often have a Manchester united badge on their chest, they judge that on their knowledge of the game, they don't dive around as much, they are pretty tough and they keep running. 

Then they judge the men's and women's game in a cycle, and while there is criticism, there are more eyes on it, people wanting to criticise or really liking it. Either way there has been more investment and more eyes on football. I do think it has improved from the opportunity women have had, now they are getting the same facilities as the men, the same medical treatment, the sports science. It has improved because of what they have been given. Imagine if you keep giving them more, it is like women want to go out there and prove you wrong, just let me do it. 

The word that comes to mind is how good was it when your parents said someone and you said, "I told you so!" If you don't give me that you have no right to ever tell me that that is the end line. 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

I agree, I think the product has improved, there is more investment and better services but also professionalism, more match minutes being paid, the more you play, the better the product, the better the investment, the ecosystem keeps feeding itself. There was a report that was drafted in the lead up to the FIFA Women's World Cup around the playing gap comparing how many match minutes the Matildas plate compared to European first-class competition and the whole purpose was to demonstrate if we don't get greater funding so the girls can play top-quality and have more match minutes we won't be competitive in 23 which led to an investment in high-performance funding from the government. 

It all feeds itself. The product is definitely improving because of those things. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Lydia, we were talking before about your post playing career and you are the player relations executive of professional football is Australia and a commissioner at the Australian Sports Commission. Awesome. Can you tell us a bit about that and how you see your advocacy role, because during your presentation I think you are very humble about your role in the equal pay fight. But by all accounts, you were a real leader of that effort and it was a very brave thing that you and the other players did. 

Now you are going to play an advocacy role essentially in the boardroom, talk to us about that. 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

It was a collective effort, the strike, but it is one of those moments where you know it's the right thing but no-one is willing to take the step forward. From my childhood my parents always made sure they were there being the one to help, OK, fine, I will front the media and make sure everyone is in the same page. 

That was during the 2015 strike. And that has led to working at the players Association and working closely with the Matildas, trying to help them understand that things they need and want, it never comes so quickly but it has to be something collective, that is a belief that this will change the trajectory of what we are currently fighting for. 

So it is working closely with the girls in managing their expectations and stress and what they need to make sure that the Asian cup next year is the best it can be. That the whirlwind of Matildas Hype continues. Working at the ASC has cast a wide lens on Australian sport and Australian female sportspeople, a lot of the commission work is not only looking at elite sports and ultimately gold medals and trophies, but going back to the curriculum and making sure that kids at school have an opportunity to be active.

Now it has been detailed in a report two years ago that the curriculum recommends 120 minutes per week at school and only 25 minutes are being actually done. There is a real, I guess, problem and epidemic on children not having that activity level from the ground up and that affects A Lit and the fees to join a sport, it is been exciting to have these conversations sports, how many people are playing, learning about different individual sports, what Jessica Fox needed to win two gold medals and that has to be invested into these people long-term to keep producing us at the Olympic level, the top three in the medal tally winners. 

Every Olympics that comes along. And that only happens by more participation in sport, higher resources being thrown into women's sport. It has been really interesting having both sides still working and being part of upper level sport, sport that I love but now having a wider cast of seeing Australia wide, where the real niche points that need to have investment put into. 

AMY PERSSON: 

It's interesting reflecting on the collective efforts of the Matildas that were part of the team and you mentioned Jessica Fox, she is in an individual race, not part of the team and Leila, similarly with surfing, you are an individual. Do you want to comment on that? Is the way forward for those women that collective banding together? Are they doing that or is it more difficult because they are not in a team structure and environment? 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

A bit of both. I agree that that collective effort is needed. The ongoing investment. Because we really need to change than an hour -- change the narratives in women's sport, the misperception. We have women saying they really need to prove themselves all the time, on and off of the water. That collective effort is extremely important to change the narrative. The power of visibility. Giving the platform for women's sport to be seen. We really need to normalise women's sport at the grassroots level. At the same time, we really need to = invest and slowly change and tackle all of the barriers like the sponsorship, for example, having guidance for them. 

For the unequal allocation of resources. All of the other things, for underrepresentation of women, we really need to have the collective effort for normalising women sport and changing the narratives. And at the same time, working at the policy and structural level to really break down all of those barriers they are facing. For women in surfing, it is extremely hard at the moment because even though we have those policies in place, like equal prize money, at the grassroots level it does not seem to be that alignment. 

There is little bit of resistance. And being an individual athlete and not having that, you know, sponsorship, et cetera, because for teamwork you might be able to get that salary, et cetera, but the salary for surfers comes from the sponsorship and not getting that sponsorship, paying more attention to their bodies rather than their skills or the poses they can make in their bikinis rather than their skills, it really puts them in a vicious loop that takes them much longer to get to the professional, you know, state of being a professional athlete. 

So yes, it is harder. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Karen, there is no doubt a time when investment into women's sport was probably considered a DEI initiative. Maybe in some spaces it still is. We are obviously seen, for me anyway, quite an alarming attack on DEI initiatives, primarily obviously coming out of the US but that is spilling into major global corporate and other countries. 

Can you comment on that in relation to women's sport? I mean, should we be worried? 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

I think that is up to us. I mean, even using the term DEI for diversity, equity, and inclusion hides what it is we are actually talking about here. I mean, those words, do people actually want a monoculture instead of diversity? Do they actually want fairness? Do they want and exclusionary culture that people are not given access to? 

I think that to just follow the kind of knee-jerk critique of diversity and inclusion programs as is starting to happen in the US is a mistake. In particular for women's sport where so much of this plays out, I do feel hopeful about that, though. Because I referenced before some of those deeper Australian values that we speak about, even if they have not been fully realised, and I don't really believe that Australians want a sporting life that is unequal and exclusionary. 

So, I think there is so much potential there for us to stop and just go, "We do not have to follow global trends on this. We can actually have our own Australian sporting values and hold onto those ones and develop those ones and make them distinctively Australian so that if America does something else or some other country does something else, we don't have to follow like sheep and can build a more positive culture ourselves." 

It does not mean I don't think we can improve things. One of the pushback in my field of equality law is often because people seem to feel quite easily that things have gone too far. You often hear that. So, you make tiny bits of progress and then people are like, "Women are getting everything and men are not, men are missing out on everyone is too woke." 

I think one of the reasons that happens is because people see that coming from elites. They see it being imposed on them from people who, you know, seem not part of their world. And the one thing about sport is that it is of the people, for the people. It is such an amazing arena to actually have, you know, bring everyone along. Listen to how Australians want their sport to look and make it like that rather than having researchers sit on podiums. 

I will leave it there... 

AMY PERSSON: 

We love researchers on podiums. I'm just going to questions from the audience, and there is some fantastic questions, so thank you and please keep them coming. 

The most popular is, "How can we create safe, welcoming spaces for women and girls in bigger bodies? Fatphobia is rife in Australian sporting culture and size and diversity is often overlooked when it comes to intersectional inclusion." 

Leila, you mentioned that in relation to surfing, do you want to pick that one up? 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

Doing more research and having more evidence. We really need that, in terms of intersectionality and how, when it comes to sports, different things intersect, like race, even the shape of the body and everything, we really need to investigate a little bit more and to have evidence. And then, that evidence can help us to shape and change the narratives. 

But definitely, to sexuality is extremely important as a concept, -- intersectionality is extremely important as a concept, it is growing and getting more attention and hopefully we will be able to invest a bit more in that area as well. When it comes to women's sport, lots of things need to happen. 

So, that is certainly one of them. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane, do you want to comment on that one in terms of representation? Because we are through a whole range of sports, but maybe particular rugby, we are being exposed to a fantastic array of different, powerful shapes and sizes. 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

I was just reflecting, so, coming from football were pretty much everyone is the same shape or size, some are taller than others... And then coming into rugby, and one of the key things about rugby is there is a position for everyone in the team. We need all different shapes and sizes. And we can see that, especially in the 15s game. There are a lot of females playing the game that are different shapes and sizes, but it is really important to actually have that. 

You want your forwards to be bigger. Your backs might be a bit leaner. It does provide this opportunity, a Sport For All, everyone is welcome, because we need all. That is a really positive aspect of the sport. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Yes, thank you. Have another question here in a similar vein, "How do we ensure racial equality and representation is included in the conversation about breaking down gender valid -- barriers, like addressing stereotypes of the -- sofa Chicka only being a white Australian?' 

--Surfer Chick. Do you want to start, Leila? It's true, that is the image that springs to mind, you talked about surfing being multigenerational. I assume that if your dad or your parents was a surfer, this is what I experienced. I live near a beach-ish and the girls and boys that are surfing, often it is because the family surfs and usually it is still the dad. 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

Exactly, also localism and territorialism is one of the main issues. At the grassroots and structural level we have in surfing. When it comes to localism, the intersectionality is extremely important. Race is extremely important. Because if you are not local, you are not welcome. 

And, if you are not local but if you are from a different background, it adds another layer of not being welcome. If you are from a different race, if you are even male, but have a different colour or even accent, or? So, there are different layers into that. I don't want to get into the details of that. But, you know, it is very important. And that is one of the main things that my colleague and I are doing this research, it would be in -- that we would really love to invest in, and we would focus on and do more research. Because that localism is a big issue and takes a lot of effort and time to change that narrative there. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Lydia, do you think that is less of an issue at the grassroots level in soccer? Certainly when I watch my kids play, it feels like a game with lots of diversity. But, do you have some thoughts on that? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

I think it is due to the men's game having so much eyes on it. You look at livable -- Liverpool and you look at Real Madrid, there are so many races, things like race and religion is already being  brought to light in the men's game but it is widely debated and accepted. I think it helps at the men's game has so many issues they are still working their way through. 

But, in terms of if it is a single parent with one income, like, football is not the cheapest sport to join. 

AMY PERSSON: 

It is expensive, actually. For kids, it takes you back a little. 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

And if you have multiple kits that want to play different sports, that is a lot of time in the car, a lot of resources. It is getting, I think, harder in terms of that for parents and families, they might say you have to do one sport and that is what the kid does not want to do. I was lucky, I was in a small country town in Kalgoorlie and it was two ovals and it was T-ball, football, AFL, basketball, athletics, and that was it. I was just there for the whole weekend. I had so much exposure to all of these different sports until I found what I loved. 

But right now it is turning into from a young age kids have to pick one sport and they don't get the opportunity to pursue other things and they fall out of love with the game when they get to a point. So I think that is one big problem. Sports are getting almost too exclusive to be let's do this because of the surge in popularity. 

But if you are in a small country town, people are driving three hours back and forth to participate with their kid. And if the kid says no eventually, then that is a lot of effort that has been done in their life. So I think it is breaking down the barriers and making it more accessible for people that might need that help. 

AMY PERSSON: 

And that is a nice segue into another question from Ali, "There are some wonderful Indigenous women coming up the ranks like Jayda Wyman and she Dean Evans, what can Australian stakeholders in the football space to ensure more First Nations go get -- girls get this opportunity?" 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

That is something I have been fighting for a long time. If it was not for me moving to Canberra, I would not have the path I have had. Really, it is First Nations people have to move from country towns for all sports. You see it with AFL, they get drafted and go to a big city, they have never lived in a big city and a lot of them either struggle for a couple of years or they get in trouble or whatever it is. So, I think it is a real problem in the First Nation space of having that accessibility and, I guess, commitment. 

You are not just investing in the player as a First Nations person, you are investing in culture and their family. And that is the thing that sports don't understand, if you want to get a First Nations person involved, you have to commit to the whole of them. To make sure, and it is difficult. There is a lot of advocates and cultural advisors now in most sporting codes but it really is the buy in from up top to make sure that if this is the part they want to go down, it is the whole shebang for First Nations people. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane, do you want to talk about that in relation to rugby? And by that, I mean the inclusion of more First Nations women. 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

I think it has to come from the top down. Like me it has to be a strategic decision that the Board is buying into, that this is a serious investment they are making to do this. I don't know enough about the plans of RA but there was a lot of investment with working with state members around delivering these programs to make sure there was an opportunity to play football in Indigenous communities. If you don't have that support from the top and it's not a strategic investment of the business it will not succeed. I think that is an important point, it can't be just trying to do it, it has to be a full commitment. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Leila or Karen, do you want to answer that one as well? 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

There have also been a lot of enquiries and issues around racism in sport and in sport we have seen some of the most egregious examples of racial discrimination. If you look at those reports, they tend to focus on men, that is one of those intersectional issues again. 

I guess one other thing I would say is while I completely agree with these comments from a systemic or institutional point of view, we also have to make those spaces as safe as we can because that is another way in which people look at those arenas and they are put off entering them, it is very offputting to see some of the treatment that has happened. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane, you mention social media as a way to tell stories in women's sport. Can you speak more to the impact social media has had on building the Matildas brand and hype for women sport in general. Should others take a leaf out of that book. I didn't realise I was identified as a group, profiled, and I didn't realise there was a whole campaign that led me to I thought organic realisation that the Matildas were the best ever. 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

We knew you were coming, we had you covered. What has been interesting for me, these days fandom is created following a certain player not necessarily a team. That is been a great learning, it is something rugby is learning as well, in the world of rugby it is very team focused but what will be important is ensuring the profile of each individual player is absolutely front and centre because we connect with the human, the player, and we saw that with the Matildas, authentic collection, the Disney documentary helped, people fail they knew the team, they wanted to be near them. 

Using social media as a way to do that is very important, people are now engaging with sport following their favourite players and their favourite sports. The theme for the World Cup was Beyond Greatness, the idea of going beyond anything you thought you could do, we could use that strongly on social media across different industries, I think that was an important play we had. 

Also using influencers who don't necessarily play sport, DJs and others who had different interests in cultural and artistic pursuits, the key thing was they were all talking about the FIFA Women's World Cup, whether it was the Matildas or the 31 of the teams in the tournament. We have multicultural social media happening as well. We wanted to make sure everyone had as much information as possible and if they couldn't get to a game they could go to a fan festival, in every city showing every game. 

It was almost like the takeover of Australia and New Zealand at the time, but using social media to that advantage. There have been a lot of stories about negative social media as well. We were very aware that we have to make sure it stays positive, we can't control everything, but everything we put out there was a celebration and pleasingly we receive that back. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Lydia, have you always use social media or did this come at you in the lead up and you had to get familiar with it and understand it and use it or did that happen around you? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

I have used it for cats and having fun but I didn't realise the impact during COVID it really took off and Jane had two co-workers as well and they would be messaging myself and Steph Catley asking us to post something. I didn't realise the power of social media, and that is the way the world has gone, everyone is wanting to have authentic, relatable people and social media. 

And we turned that point around COVID, I guess, people were in dire need of stories and wanting to see things that they were going through. There had to be powerful individual stories and relate ability and that's why the Matildas have created that brand. Everyone was willing to jump on board to do that storytelling and that inside look of their lives to really relate to everyone else. That is when I took social media a little bit more seriously. 

Now I am passed that point, it's gone back to being my fun professional space. 

AMY PERSSON: 

I am going to give panellists a head up about our closing question before I ask you another one, it is a great question. What do you think or hope your legacies will be? I will let you think about that, Lydia, while I ask you this one from Charley. After Tony's departure as the Matildas coach, would you like to see a female coach for the team? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

I think for me it was always the right person for the right job. To be honest, it's hard to coordinate and organise 23 professional women and staff on top of that to make sure everyone has the right path aligned. That speaks about the quality of the person and their credentials versus the gender. But it is important to understand the gender gap and the things women go through versus men. 

I know right now there is a huge study into menstrual cycles and performance. That can go into it, understanding all that kind of stuff. I think it is always the best person for the job is the one who will understand the team the most. At the end of the day, that has to be going through the right interviews and breaking down of their philosophies and how they will fit into the team. Because as you can see coaches come and go, but the team stayed so it is really the right person for the job. 

AMY PERSSON: 

We have about six or seven more minutes. Leila, what do you think or hope your legacy will be? 

DR LEILA KHANJANINEJAD: 

I do hope that when, at the end of my career when I look back, I see that we have positive change in sport. I work in other spaces as well but in sport specifically that we have, the level of equitable environmental access to everything for women and girls for sport and how girls look at social media and the newspaper and see themselves to be those athletes, can imagine themselves. 

I hope that when I look back, I feel proud to be part of this journey that I dedicated my time in my career to be part of this journey in progression towards gender equity. That is something I'm hoping for it the moment. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Jane? 

JANE FERNANDEZ: 

It feels like my eulogy. Sorry, legacy. When I have the opportunity to to look back after I hang up my boots, I hope I have inspired young girls to go beyond greatness, I hope I have created an environment, an opportunity, for young girls to see they can play every sport, that the barriers have reduced if not gone, that would be amazing. 

When I was growing up I was given one option ? netball. Great game, I loved it. But I wasn't given the opportunity to play soccer or rugby or anything else. I really hope I have created change and opportunity and provided these amazing platforms through sport to have these conversations and to really leave sport and the sporting world in a better place than it was when I started. 

AMY PERSSON: 

Karen? 

PROF KAREN O'CONNELL: 

I think the idea of leaving a legacy itself is a bit gendered. I don't think women are encouraged to think of themselves and those grand terms. But I will say law is often about individual rights, it's about people fighting what are often brutally hard fights, taking on big systems, it's not a way to change anything easily. 

What I would love to leave a legacy of shifting the way people think about equality and discrimination issues more collectively as Lydia said, so we don't see gender issues as being about women or race issues about people of colour, we are all invested in it and have some kind of vision about how that could look. 

That's my professional aim. We often separate out different spheres of our lives, but I want to add I have three daughters who all played or still play soccer, that personal part of your life where you have spent a lot of hours and time caring and loving people is also such an important part of our legacy again as Lydia said with her parents. 

And finally before we came up here Jane and I were talking about what makes you go on and be positive in an area where there is so often tell stories. We talked about having fun. Jane used the wonderful term ? collective effervescence. Especially as a feminist who is supposed to completely lacked humour and not have fun, I just want to say we should do all of this stuff but also have a whole lot of fun along the way. And sport is fine as well. 

AMY PERSSON: 

That's what it's all about. I have daughters coming up, I think there is a huge drop-off of girls played sport around the age of 12 and there is no sign of that in our family. But I am really conscious you enter this period in these early teenage years where so many girls leave sport and I think that is really important, that we find ways to encourage our girls. 

Maybe it is not fun for them anymore and I like the idea of making sure it is still fun so they continue. Lydia, you talk to us about your legacy, is there anything you want to add? 

LYDIA WILLIAMS: 

That sport is for all, and for longevity. I think sometimes seeing athletes and elite level games, it is like people think they can never do that, but it's important to continue on the part of physical activity because it helps brain development and helps your bones, it prevents dementia, and increases your mental health. 

I think we need to look at sport is not only these amazing athletes and participants, but also for yourself. I once sport, my legacy would be to make sport like your morning coffee, it is routine. You don't have to be part of a team, it could be your walk every day. That is what makes Australians healthy and also promote a physical, active, amazing lifestyle. My passion project is First Nations and that is what I want to get down to, making sure we see more First Nations representation in public and social media. 

AMY PERSSON: 

What a note to end on. Please join me in thanking Lydia, Karen, Leila and Jane. 

(Applause) 

One final thing from me. We want to know your thoughts on today's discussion, if you're in Slido and you go to the poll tab there are a couple of questions. Thank you for coming to UTS to celebrate International Women's Day, it's been wonderful. Thanks again.