Recording: From extraction to reciprocity

AMY: Welcome, all of you. My name is Amy Persson and I’m the Interim Pro Vice-Chancellor (Social Justice and Inclusion) here at UTS. Welcome to those who are here in person and welcome to everyone joining us online. What a pleasure to welcome you to an event which closes off a day of workshops and talks, delving into community engagement practices here at this fantastic university. To open our event, I’m delighted to invite Aunty Glendra Stubbs, UTS’s Elder-in-Residence to conduct an Acknowledgement of Country.  

AUNTY GLENDRA: Thank you, lovely. That title you got, does it mean you are acting?  

AMY: It means I am interim, but I’m really running with it.  

AUNTY GLENDRA: I think it is really important, and I think it is important that we can feel safe to us questions at 78 years of age. I would like to acknowledge I am on the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, and for allowing myself to be here, to live, work and play, sometimes. 

UTS is a very special place. It is a really special place. It is everything I believe in about inclusion, was that your phone? Now I forget where I was up to. That is also something that comes with age. I am proud to be UTS's Elder-in-Residence and I think people have snaffled me up, because there are a few organisations that have stuck Elder-in-Residence under I think it is their funding agreement? 

One of them is where Lindon have left us in really good hands, Tranby College, I think it is a legacy that is still going with some donations. We all want to leave our fingerprints on this bucket of earth, and you have done that in more than that way. 

I love UTS. It is about inclusion, it is about diversity, it is about supporting people to have a go. You get the young ones at Jumbunna, the first person in their family to finish yearr 10, year 12, and now they will give university ago. That is the hallmark of a good place, and also a hallmark of a good country, where you can… I told my story in the paper. My brother got made fun of that work. I lived in a time where Aboriginal people couldn't get employment, and if they did get employment they got paid half of the wages of other people, and we couldn't own land. 

People were disadvantaged. We are catching up. This is a takeover. Everybody loves this, don't they, Lindon? It is important to show people's perception, because my dad used to say that do not tell people your Aboriginal values, tell them you are a man and crazy. It was really difficult when I had my first baby, because he was someone who was removed from his family, and he was sure I wasn't taking my baby home. That is a legacy we have in this country. We have got lots of good stuff, we have got really amazing people. 

UTS is amazing, and if we are talking about community engagement, I said that my idea about community engagement, sorry, Lindon, he always gets worried when I say have my own ideas. (Laughs) Engagement is one, two, three, cup of tea. You don't just fly in or fly out, or my grandmother used to say fly in and she is on the floor. That is exactly what she said. You can't expect people to embrace you and love you straight away, you have to put effort in. That is what I believe community engagement is. One, two, three, cup of tea, if you hear it from anywhere else, you still that from Aunty. My room is always open most of the time when I am here. 

Here at UTS we have great leadership, we have great people, there are many people in the audience that I love. This is the place I want to be. I want to be in a place that makes people feel welcome, makes people feel empowered, and give people a fair go. Keep up the good work, and level I, two, three, four, five, six, cup of tea. 

AMY: Thank you so much, Aunty Glendra. I love it. One, two, three, cup of tea. We might talk more about that in our discussion. Before we get into the discussion, I am going to make some opening remarks, and reflect on the fact that UTS has always been an outward-looking university. And I think that is really important. That is something that all of us here in online need to work hard to protect, because I don't think that is a given. I think that is something that requires effort to make sure we maintain that really outward focus. 

We have a diverse student population, we have world-renowned academics, incredible infrastructure, and just sitting here, you can see it, right? We are all in the city, and in a way not that many institutions in Australia really are centred in this urban environment. 

Education, research and community underpin universities, and at UTS, social justice and our commitment to delivering public good is core business. That is another thing to keep an eye on. It is on all of us to make sure it remains core business. 

Part of that core business is community engagement, which is crucial to equitable and sustainable public decision-making, and improving the livability of local communities. 

This year, for those of you following higher education policy, the government released the Universities Accord, a vision for higher education and its role in readying Australia for the future we want.

There are lots of good stuff in it. It says lots of good things, and one of the things it acknowledges is the relationship universities have with their communities goes well beyond education and research, and should go well beyond education and research. Universities create jobs, partnerships with local businesses and schools, undertake locally relevant research, attract investment, provide resources, facilities and leadership that support the communities that host them. 

We also know universities have a long history of exploiting and extracting knowledge, right? The universities that do not do one, two, 3 cup of tea, that do what your relative said, which I will not repeat, Aunty. Without offering another in return, right? People, communities that exists outside the very privilege walls of a university. 

Each of our speakers here today are here because they are not doing that, they are working to address societal challenges that matter to an impact people in communities. Each bring deep insight into how we can make our community-university partnerships and relationships truly reciprocal, enriching both parties and generating wide social benefits. 

It is now my pleasure to introduce them. Professor Lindon Coombes is a Yuallaraay  man whose family is from north-west New South Wales and has over 25 years of experience working across a range of sectors and Aboriginal affairs positions in. He has held senior executive the NSW Government and has been CEO of Aboriginal owned and controlled organisations. Lindon has also been a Senior Advisor for successive Ministers holding the Aboriginal Affairs portfolio in NSW. He was most recently a Director in PwC’s Indigenous Consulting and is now Director of Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research. 

On the other end is Jack Kelly, an honorary research fellow at UTS in the School of the Built Environment in the Faculty of Design Architecture and Building. Jack has worked in the disability research and advocacy sector since 2015, and holds a position on the Council of Intellectual Disability. Welcome. You get a clap, Jack! I'm sure they are saving it. 

Associate Professor Phillipa Carnemolla is from the UTS School of Built Environment, where she works on projects that identify and remove barriers to participation in our workplaces, organisations, homes and cities. She has worked in partnership with The Council for Intellectual Disability for the past 6 years, and colleagues a whole range of interesting pin-- things that people can read in your bio. Does Philippa get a clap? Yes. 

Oscar Sanchez, in the middle, is the coordinator at the Uniting Harris Community Centre and the co-chair of the Pyrmont Ultimo network of services. He has managed and codesigned with the local community many diverse and inclusive project and events to bring people together, celebrate community traditions, and support our most vulnerable members. Oscar has been a long-term partner across various UTS programs. 

Lastly, and certainly not least, Lisa Aitken is an educator in both Sydney and London before working for Transport for London to codesigned programs alongside local police, transport providers, and students to provide better outcomes for young people. Lisa worked for 8 years in the Centre Student Equity Team, then went to the New South Wales Department of education to codevelop innovative educational solutions. She is now back with the centre, and is the executive manager of community engagement and impact. Please welcome Lisa. 

I've got - a big your pardon? And Aunty would like to give Lindon a clap! Very good. I have a series of questions for our panellists, but there is also an opportunity for people here and people online to ask questions. There is a QR code behind me, and people online should be able to access Slido. Ask your questions as we go. You can vote for questions that somebody else has already asked, and I will make sure we've got time to have a discussion during the event. 

I'm going to start with Lindon. You lead critical research initiatives with and for Indigenous communities. Correct? What processes are in place to ensure that they receive recognition as knowledge holders and experts in projects? 

LINDON: Well, it's fundamental. There go my notes, I don't know what to say now. (Laughs) Firstly I should thank Aunty Glendra for her Acknowledgement of Country. 

Everyone should have a hype Aunty like you, so thank you for pumping up my tires. I would also like to acknowledge the Gadigal People, on whose lands I get to live and work. And acknowledge their custodianship and defence of these lands and waters. 

That is fundamental to who we are at Jumbunna. It's a relatively small industry. If you try to take people's OP or you behave inappropriately, that comes back. We pride ourselves at Jumbunna on our relationships with communities, organisations, and people. 

And that is hard earned. Talk about the cup of tea, Larissa has been working with families for decades. And it's unsexy work, but once you do that and establish those relationships, that is when the good stuff comes. 

And I think, you know, we are not necessarily smarter than a lot of other people. We do really good work, but is based on relationships. And where you get that knowledge. 

And we, as I say, it's fundamental. We fundamentally believe Aboriginal people and their communities know the problems, they know the solutions, they just need someone to work with them for a bit and get some resources. So, that's how we approach things. 

We are not the ones going out and solving problems, we are listening to Aboriginal people, translating that into things like changing legislation. But we are nothing without our relationships, and, yeah. It's fundamental to our beliefs and operation. 

AMY: You briefly mentioned IP, can you talk about that a little bit more? What does it look like in practice? IP is intellectual property. 

LINDON: It is a complex and tricky thing, but over centuries Aboriginal people have had their IPs stolen. That's why they are very guarded about it. That's why you have to have a good relationship, otherwise you don't get told that stuff. 

There is a couple of examples of that, in my last job. We did a job on bush foods and the Kakadu plum. There is more plums now in South Africa. (Laughs) than Australia. Indigenous people aren't getting credit for its medicinal and other purposes. 

I just started learning my Yuallaraay language, started a TAFE course. Aunty told me a story that emus would pick up gold, you know birds have to digest with rocks and things like that? I never knew that. Emus used to get gold, because it was shiny and heavy. The people out in New South Wales told other people about it, and all of a sudden these emus were getting killed. 

That's just an example of Indigenous IP being misused, stolen, and a range of other things. Particularly medicinal properties of plants and other things, have been stolen.

And have made lots and lots of money. That's why Indigenous communities are very guarded when people come in to their communities to talk to them. 

AMY: Thank you. Oscar, how do you ensure your community's priorities are at the heart of a project you do in collaboration with UTS? And if you can talk a little bit about the impact of that partnership, that would be great. 

OSCAR: First of all, thank you everyone, thank you UTS, thank you everyone here for having me. Giving me the opportunity to join, and share our insights, but also to acknowledge the wonderful partnerships we have with UTS. Without you, there would not be so many current projects and initiatives happening in our community. 

People learning and building capacity, and amazing potential. Thanks to this partnership, we create and practice every day. I was thinking about, there are so many things I could mention, but I think it's involving. Making sure the people in our community are involved in those projects. 

Participants, active participants of these projects. And that is key to ensure the community priorities, the priorities of our communities are being maintained and respected. If you don't know much about the community centre, I don't have much time... 

AMY: You are good. 

OSCAR: Please come to the Harris community centre, it's literally 5 blocks away. We are a community centre mainly driven by community. Volunteers, students in placement, the local community. And our partners, local organisations. 

By ensuring... Our projects are run by the group, by local residents, students, volunteers. Very diverse communities. So, we ensure they participate, we engage with them. Codesign, really. That's how we really ensure that they, that those priorities are being met. Of course, in addition, the wonderful work that UTS has led in terms of the theory of change in the neighbourhood. 

I remember, how long ago was it, Lisa? 2 years ago, when we started this? With the idea of, wouldn't it be amazing to have a blueprint or a way to align the vision of our communities, so that we can actively use it and implement it in our plans and strategies? 

And the University was key in ensuring, this is on the website. You just have to search for theory of change for Pyrmont and Ultimo communities. That is a blueprint we can implement in our strategies and plans. Not only for our organisation. What is the impact this partnership has had in our communities, in the work we do? There are so many examples. 

It saves time, money. So many resources. For example, we created in 2020 a local community currency. We called it checks, community gift cards. It's a response to COVID, and ensuring that we are supporting local businesses, and advancing our community. Donations, grants, stay in the community. How? By having this gift card and using it and selling it in the community, gifting it to people in our community that are more vulnerable, and supporting those local businesses. 

It's a gift card. And with that comes limits. It's very manual, very difficult to handle. To make it easier to, you know, to make the card easier to be sold and expanded, so that it has a bigger reach, it needs to be digital. Do we have the money to pay for the digitalisation of a card like that? No, that costs thousands of dollars to do. 

But then, here comes amazing assets and resources that the University has. In collaboration and partnership with the UTS Centre for social justice and inclusion, we developed the gift card. 

We are looking at the impact it has brought to the project, we have saved at least 2 years of work, thousands of volunteer hours, and lots of money. If we were to pay... Having gone into the job of finding out how much it has actually saved us, definitely at least 30 or $40,000 we have saved. And this is money that we cannot afford to pay for things like this. 

We have people in our community that are hungry, that cannot afford food on the table. So we save on, by saving on projects and ideas, we focus on sharing the resources, the funding that we get, to ensure that we focus on those more vulnerable. 

There are countless projects, we are working on a digital asset map right now called community compass. Amazing work from the University, helping us build that. That cost thousands to develop. And it's just by coming together, working together, we have been able to save years, hours, time, resources. It has grown us closer together. 

We get to know each other a lot more, and the more we get to know each other, the more we can build and collaborate and participate. 

AMY: What I love about those couple of examples, and just for the benefit of people in the room and online, it is our students doing that work. So, we are not in a relationship where - maybe you would like this, Oscar, but where UTS just gives Oscar money to get this stuff done. We have really fantastic programs of engaging our students to deliver this kind of work, who get the benefit of working in the real world, with a community partner, and helping to deliver that benefit. 

So thank you. 

Jack and Philippa, can you give us an overview of how you collaborate, and maybe talk to us about a recent project as part of that? 

JACK: Sure. I have been working with the University for over 6 years. We have a collaboration in different ways, developing, deliberating on the project. One of our first projects, we shared an office at UTS, and I would come each Thursday. 

During COVID-19, the things that we want to experience… we have had many team catch ups for our work each week. Phillipa is stupendous and it is really great to see the lived experience that Phillipa has shown UTS. But before I wrap up, at the moment we are doing a project about the memory institution with the Council for Intellectual Disability or CID, we have partners with the Hunter, and we are currently working with Phil and Lee Clarkson. We come together, we work on and make sure the voice and experience of people with intellectual disabilities are heard. 

PHILLIPPA: It is probably… we are probably on our fourth project that we have worked together. The first one was probably back in 2018. I had never done community embedded work before. And I happened to get a grant and I had a friend on it who had worked on the Council for Intellectual Disability, and I very openly said that I don't know how to do this. I want to work with community, bring community in to our project. And Anja said to me that I need to work with Jack Kelly. 

JACK: I felt like, "Let's give it a shot, if it doesn't work out, we can still work at CID." Academics and having the realness, the authentic, the realness of having that knowledge that empower you to not lose sight on the mission you are trying to achieve in the research space. 

PHILLIPPA:” That is right. And to say as well, Jack and I… Jack, you have co-authored how many academic articles now? Is it six? 

JACK: I think I have lost count. 

PHILLIPPA: Fantastic conversation articles as well. We develop incredibly productive teams, haven't we? 

JACK: Yes, it takes a village, and we all know it UTS and other places we might work out, it takes a collaborative approach to get our voice heard and raising these issues, when the systems and values of people of the different sectors will never get heard.

AMY: Thank you, both. I will bring Lisa in now. She is leading the delivery of the Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion's community engagement scholarship program, how can we ensure that students and community are benefiting from the work? 

LISA: As Oscar and others have mentioned, it is a good example of how our students engage in community. I'm lucky I get to oversee engage research work that I get to do, involved with Oscar and also others in the community, but also engage with teaching in as well. We have a couple of different programs, one is in curricula, so students within the actual subject are working with people such as Oscar, using their skill sets and doing that is a part of their courses to work on things the community needs. 

We also have an extracurricular offering as well where students volunteering community and make social impact through that way. Through all of those, there are lots of enablers that students and community can benefit, but what I think is critical in that is starting with community need. Rather than thinking about what we need first, what UTS is an institution needs first, we at shopfront have a great example, put out for example the projects are open for semester 2, come and have a chat to us. It has been going for 28 years now, we have that trust. As Lindon has mentioned, truss is critical in longevity. 

We work with them about what the projects look like and connect it with students. Putting the community need first is critical in making sure it is benefiting communities and students. The other element that I think also important is student readiness. What we look at when working with students, when they are ready to do that work, we look at students in third year and postgraduates as well, students can learn the skill set where they can go back out to community and use. They have also had a chance to develop their mindsets and skills as well. 

It is not just going out into community and as Aunty Glendra said before, going out there and coming back in. It is going in with the right skills and mindset as well. We have put a lot of work working with students to develop those skills. We do modules, courses and contents around power and privilege, around culture humility, combating stereotypes and what it is like to work in community organisations. 

So students are actually prepared to go out into those spaces and to be effective, to make actual impact that makes a difference for people. I think those are the critical things and as Lindon has said, trust, relationship and continuity, it takes time. 

AMY: It is all sounding really really good, right? It sounds like community and universities work in perfect harmony. I want to ask Oscar to possibly provide a counterpoint. 

Presumably there are challenges with having a great university in your community. And if there are things that UTS can do better? 

OSCAR: Firstly, the UTS also does, but definitely the footprint of the university is huge. I don't know how many square metres the university occupies and continues to grow. One of the major assets in our community is probably seen by members of the community, that it cannot be accessed, it cannot be utilised. If you are not a member of faculty or a student, you cannot set foot. That is not true. It is the opposite. But there are many people who don't know that. 

Having these amazing resources and assets and not making it available for a community, and that is a challenge definitely. How can we be a better neighbour to allow more of the community to use these spaces? You have kindly provided spaces for others to have a meeting space. And we have talked about ideas, for example, having playgroups at the University or having… I was just thinking about maybe it would be great to have a festival here. 

We constantly apply for grants to host in public spaces and it is increasingly more difficult. I'm sure there are spaces that are a lot easier to use. Imagine a combined event where community and UTS are running an event together when we highlight the amazing things we do, not only in the community, but also the University. That would be an easy way to get community and university working together. 

Being available, increasing the awareness, and something you already do that is important, you are present. You come to community meetings and you attend the networking events, and you host networking events. Not many do that, not many universities do that. UTS is really the only university that is present, at least in Ultimo/Pyrmont. It is being there without an agenda. We are very thankful. 

If you can let us know more about the University, about the assets that are available I am sure others will love you even more. 

AMY: Lisa, do you want to comment on the challenges that you and your team face or can see when it comes to UTS being here? 

LISA: Yes. Is this working? Hello. I think… 

AMY: You have permission to speak freely. 

LISA: (Laughs) I think… challenges… I think Oscar is right. How can we be more porous? We come up against systemic barriers in doing that. Institutions built on systems and sometimes those are tricky to get around, insurances and things like that. But in an ideal world, we have a library upstairs that is available for everybody. But some things are tricky about that. We've got spaces, as we have talked about before that could be used elsewhere for people in community that are sometimes sitting and used that could be used for community, it is getting around the red tape stuff to be that porous university that are a better part of the community. 

We are sitting in a space at the moment for people online we have got big great glass windows and we can see all the stuff that is happening outside. When you sit here and look at all of that, you think all of these people could be coming in here and we could have a much more collaborative existence, because we are a part of our community and we have a responsibility. We have an impact on the community around us and they have an impact on us. Be a better neighbour, be a part of the community, and be a porous institution that is more open and inviting to our community. 

AMY: If there are any UTS staff here online that can help us in that mission, send us an email. I think it is a good challenge, Oscar and Lisa, and one that we need to think about. Lindon, in keeping with the challenges, can you talk to us about some other considerations that you look at when you are taking on projects in Jumbunna and maybe give people advice, lots of people want to work with Jumbunna, right? Lots of people at UTS want to work with Jumbunna. Can you give people advice about the best way to go about that? 

LINDON: I do, but maybe not after I give this answer. (Laughs) We have these very long relationships now, we generally don't have to go into competitive processes. People are coming to us because of our reputation, and so when they do the first lens is impact. In what way will this make life better for Blackfellas. And we do look at a cultural fit, and what that organisation is about. 

We have been really conflicted about doing work with mining companies. I think we have flicked that a couple of times. For a whole range of reasons. But yeah, there is a lens you put over partners that are aligned with us. And that can sometimes be tricky, because sometimes there is good work to do, like with the mining sector and others, but at the end of the day our social contract comes from our relationship with community, and they don't want to see our annual report with BHP on it at the end of the day. (Laughs) 

Even though we could do some good work. The 2nd part is working with us, and there is quite a few parts to that. So, over a period of time, and from experience, if you want to work with us, call us in at the start. We have had a few people, organisations, people within the university who have put in for a project with an Aboriginal component, got the job, and then come knocking at the door to say, "Oh, would you like to work with us on this project?" And that is most always a flat no. 

We have made exceptions just where the benefit to Indigenous people, we could see. But generally it's a flat no. And similarly, if you want us to come in on a project, even if we only do 5% of it, we will demand sign off. Again, from experience, we do a bit of the broader project and at the end our work is not conveyed truthfully. 

Or is manipulated. So, in our first meetings with people, with the best of intent, I always lead with that. I'm sorry if it sounds arrogant or elitist, but if we are not in it at the start, and we have to have the right to sign off. Even if we only contribute the tiniest bit. 

As I say, that is... That has been born of experience. So, in saying that, I think we're good to work with. (Laughs) If you abide by our rules. But within that, we obviously love collaborating with people. We've got a really good relationship here with ISF, starting to do some really good work with them. And they have inherently got that, respected our time and cultural approach to that. 

But yeah, we have had a lot of suboptimal experiences, so. That is kind of... We are a bit of a hard case. At least on those principles. 

AMY: Those conditions, I guess, that you outlined, they seem absolutely critical to maintaining the community trust that you have worked and built over so many years. So they seem incredibly reasonable. 

When you have had those examples where people have come to you and said, by the way, we are putting you on our project. Which is sort of hard to believe, that it happens. Are they then open, do they get it when you say no, and this is really not how you go about it? 

I guess I'm also interested in if there is a wider educational opportunity at the University, so that people don't make that mistake. 

LINDON: It's variable. I think some people will go, "Oh shit. Did the wrong thing, sorry." And then we will make them pay a bit extra. (Laughs) But there are others who are quite entitled, you know? They get a black line through their name. 

I don't want to come across as elitist or arrogant or, you know, not being good to work with. Because we apply that to ourselves. We wouldn't put someone in a job without talking to them first. I think it's just sort of basic good behaviour. But as I say, the experience, those experiences do certainly sharpen the edges for us, about how we engage and who we engage with. 

AMY: Thank you. Jack, I'm going to come back to you, if that's OK. And ask you about the benefit of partnering with a university for you personally, but also the disability sector more broadly. If you want to express some challenges as well, you are very welcome. Benefits and challenges. 

JACK: Thank you, Amy. I realise how valuable it is to work in the advocacy space. And the University space. I can see the strengths in those. And to see myself as a person, together in these 2 worlds. In my university work, I am building the environment to make the change that we need in the disability space. 

For an example, I want to make changes to the NDIS, such as compatible matching in supportive accommodation, which is basically very close to my heart. A national apology on the part of the government for people with disabilities and their families, for what happened in the disability institutions. 

And I will add very briefly, when I started in the, in my university life. It was 2016, and it was hard for an ethics board to recognise a person with a disability could contribute to a paper, could co-author a paper. And I think we need to, we are saying that we are more inclusive of people with any sort of ability, or any disability. 

But we have those secret hurdles, like an ethics board. Can everyone hear me? Sorry. 

We have these secret little hurdles that we have to secretly jump through, to get our name on a piece of paper. To be recognised in the University. And that shouldn't matter, of any ability that we have to produce that paper. 

It might take a while to get there, but we will set those standards and achieve those goals. Thank you. 

AMY: And it's frustrating that you have to do the heavy lifting, right? When it comes to that. That is something that I think all of us can reflect on. 

JACK: And it's amazing that we are talking about 2016. We look back at that and we think, "2016, that should not happen in that timeframe." 

AMY: Philippa, you talked earlier about the fact that you wanted to do... You wanted to take a community centred approach, but you didn't know what that was or what that meant. Presumably, you have gained some real insights into that. Can you tell us what it means to you, now, at this stage of your career? 

PHILLIPPA: Yes. I want to add to something. We have taken great joy in underwriting many of the rules of who is the expert, who does what, and when. As an example, our My Home My Community project we did together, we had the opportunity to build teams, core teams with community. 

People with intellectual disability became researchers, facilitators, interviewers, analysts, strategists. And that is how we roll, now. It was so liberating and I have to say we have had great support from the University to rewrite the rules of what is expected, and who is the expert. And I owe all I know about community design and collaborative design because of the work Jack has been doing with The Council for Intellectual Disability, with me. You have so much more experience. 

AMY:  Thank you very much. 

PHILLIPPA: And sorry for putting that microphone - I got the message that sound was not working, sorry about that! But I'll tell you what community led research has brought. It brings, it's about valuing all forms of knowledge, right? And understanding what is valuable for community, and what is valuable for the University sector. But to the University, this kind of work brings credibility, and it brings accountability. 

And that really lifts what evidence we are building, and in turn I like to think that the evidence we are building about all of the issues we are working on, all of the various projects, contribute to the priorities of community. 

That is why we have to work so closely with community, embedded, overlapped. It's not enough to have advisory committees and groups, we need to be in and working together day-to-day.

AMY: I couldn't have asked for a better segue, you said accountability. I have a question for all of the panellists, and Jack, I might start with you. How can communities hold universities accountable for delivering positive social impact? 

JACK: Wow! What a question. I think it's important to, it's important to have their lived experience in that room. So that the community can help UTS. It's becoming a game changer in all different areas and spaces. And you never know, it might lead to an overflow of other universities to follow. Did I answer your question? 

AMY: You did, thank you very much. Philippa? 

PHILLIPPA: Can you repeat the question? (Laughs) 

AMY: It's about how communities hold universities accountable for all the things we are saying we do. How do we hold universities accountable for delivering positive social impact? 

PHILLIPPA: I'm trying to think how to… I hold the relationships, for example advocacy groups that come to councils, such as Council For Intellectual Disability, it is sharing this message. It is doing the work and show how it can be done. It is valuing and ensuring that our structures value the work that is being done in the way we are talking about, because the systems haven't. 

Even having community members pay outside of fund, a project, this is something that I know others in the audience will understand. We have got to properly value contribution out of -- outside of this project, having it valued properly in recompense. 

AMY: Thank you. Oscar, anything to add to that one on holding universities to account? 

OSCAR: I have seen this from first-hand experience. UTS walks the talk, by being present they continue to be present. For example, the network of services, we can see on a regular basis see for ourselves the liberty of that impact. When we start to see we don't do good work, hopefully that doesn't happen, you stop seeing UTS being represented at these networks or gatherings, and that is when we question what is happening, what is going on? It is that regular presence, and the story, the information, the photos, the stories of that amazing work happening, it can maintain the presence of the University at the forefront of what university is doing in the area. 

That will also help increase the profile in the community, which many still don't know about it. We have so many good will, so many amazing examples in our area, but not everyone is aware of it. Presence is key. 

AMY: Lindon. 

LINDON: Not an easy one. But the previous boss and the current boss has talked pointedly and eloquently about this place being a public institution and with that comes obligation. There is an onus on the University as a public institution to set a standard around that and what the expectations are within community. As Oscar and others have said, these places are not accessible. It is not just for us, but for a lot of people. I think there is work for us to do as a university to commit to that and be genuine about it. 

The other thing is, the extraction word out there, particularly Indigenous people broadly, it is almost entirely extractive in different areas. It is one of our principles at a Jumbunna, it is how we are not extractive. How do we engage with communities and leave them better off than when we were there. And that is a challenging lens for everyone to put to them. But that is the sort of conversations university should be having. 

AMY: Thank you. Lisa. 

LISA: I agree with Lindon, we already have accountability. Our role as a university is for public benefit, it is in the UTS strategy. However, I think there is a bigger role that government can take as well, if we look at countries such as the UK who have a research framework and other frameworks that exist. They are held accountable to public on community engagement and funding relied on that, as well as what they have to report to under the measurements as well. We are starting to do that work on knowledge exchange and how we can better work with community and industry, which is great. But I think there is also a role to play nationally as we hold ourselves accountable as universities in the communities we serve. 

AMY: I am just going to the Slido, and the most popular question is related to this. Often community engaged research and practice takes a long time for impact or outcomes. How do we ensure that institutions stay on the journey to see the results? If I could answer that for a moment. What you just pointed to as a part of that. How does the structure and the reward mechanisms for universities recognise that work? I think there has been progress. But anyone who works at a university understand that rankings are important. We talk about them all the time. But they are important and they drive decision-making, not completely, they are an input into decision-making. 

I think there has been progress made with some of the new ranking systems that value and recognise, and I think that is a real positive. It is a positive sign for future directions. But does anyone want to add to that or expand on that has a different view? How do we make sure institutions stay the course? Phillippa. 

PHILLIPPA: I can respond. Jack and I and Lindon, we were rewarded research impact, but it struck me in conversations that measuring impact, it is measured differently by different people and different institutions, we have a clear sense of what impact is, it is informing advocacy organisations on how to approach a certain issue. That is not going to be considered as impact. There is a real match match in how impact is sought through and understood. I think we need to be more open to recognising what impact is. 

And I think with recognition in that space and the systems as well. Academic promotion as well, how it is tied into people who are doing the research are actually rewarded and seen as valued. That is another important system in place that can be fixed and added to as well. A lot of the time, we are looking at funding, we are looking at industry because that is where the money is and where funding is. It comes back to what is valued. Of course, we need funding to do these projects. 

That is where the government can bring together, sorry, that recognition and accountability for universities to be working in that space because it is our core mission to do public good, to solve societal issues, and working alongside our communities to do that. Working alongside the people who have lived experience and are experts in that space. Recognition and how it is valued is important. 

AMY: Lindon, I will throw the question to you. Communities are often consulted and end up with consultation fatigue, how do you combat that? 

LINDON: It is really interesting for us, our experience towards the end of last year particularly, after the referendum. We had a lot of community engagement lined up and invariably they just said no, that they were not up for that. They were stung by the outcome of that referendum. We have to respect that. It is only now a year down the track that people are up for engaging again. 

But again, it comes back to some principles. We are currently doing work with the NSW Government and also the treaty authority in Victoria around treaty. The commissioners in New South Wales this week just announced they will go on a 12 month consultation exclusively with Aboriginal people. And what we have discussed about planning that, it is always stuck in my head from the early days, it is that blackfellas are not just sitting out there to wait for white people to come and talk to them. 

It's being respectful of that engagement, I guess going to that other question just before as well, because that is an issue with Indigenous communities, it is a high turnover. People then governments and in schools, and at least encourage institutions to stay the course, it is to better understand the value of that, that there is real value that comes from long-standing relationships, rather than this fly in fly out approach. If you understand the value of that, that is a good motivator for universities and other agencies to develop those relationships. But yeah, be respectful of their time, realise you are not the first person to go and talk to them. Understand that they have to brush themselves off from disappointments, from a range of other problems and consultation processes, and you are getting them back up again, particularly in relation to treaty. 

You have to be aware of that and honour that through genuine relationship. 

AMY: Thank you so much. I am going to end on a super, super practical but important question. How can we join in the partnership are no more about the projects you have mentioned? And I think the answer is probably the Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion's website. Lisa is nodding and others are nodding. I wonder if we could put some links in the chat, online, if that is possible for whomever is managing that online, if there is still time? 

Look, I just want to say thank you to all of you for showing up and tuning in today. It has been a fantastic conversation, and it is such a privilege, right, from me to get to sit here and sometimes ask hard questions from such incredible peoples. Please put your hands together for our wonderful panel. 

The last thing I want to say is in terms of institutional accountability and longevity, I reiterate what I said at the beginning, it does have to become a part of our jobs to share the benefits of this type of work and build the networks, and build telecommunications in UTS and amongst our community partners are that value. I urge you all to do whatever your sphere of responsibility is, please reach out to Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion, we have an email, we have a website, and we would love for you to be involved. Thank you again.