Recording: Cultivating an anti-racist campus culture

INTERIM PRO VICECHANCELLOR AMY PERSSON: Good morning, everyone. My name is Amy Persson and I'm the interim Pro ViceChancellor of Social Justice and Inclusion at UTS.  Thank you so much to all of you who are here with us in the room today but also the many hundreds of you who are also joining us online as we come together as part of UTS's 2024 Inclusion Festival to talk about the role of universities in combatting racism on our campuses and in our communities. 

To begin our event, I'd like to introduce Aunty Glendra Stubbs, UTS ElderinResidence, who will provide an Acknowledgment of Country.  Please welcome Aunty. (Applause).  

AUNTY GLENDRA STUBBS: I think I'm here with my fan club! (Cheering). Aw, gosh. Is Aunty going to be lost for words for the first time in her life? Oh, no.  Right.  Welcome, everyone, on this bleak day.  When I think of bleak, I think of 'Bleak Heath', where noone ever wanted to live and now everyone wants to live there because it's really expensive to have a little onebedroom shack anywhere, isn't it?  

So I'd like to acknowledge we're on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and say thanks for allowing me to be here.  I want to thank Elders past, present and especially our young ones.  They are our future.  They are our heart.  They are our life and they are what we are going to leave to them, so we need to make sure it's a decent place to leave. 

I just want to say: saying the words 'anti racism' is a big deal in this country because I don't think this country wants to believe it's racist, but as someone who  well, as a lot of people who have suffered racism in this country, it is a big deal.  It damages your soul.  It dints your identity and it makes you feel unworthy, and we are all worthy.  So there's still a lot to do but I think this is a start, to say the words, because I don't think we've said the words enough.  We just sort of patter around it and don't say the words.  And I'm really proud of UTS for saying this, for standing up and for making a difference because we've still got a long way to go.  I picked this up  I think it was Paul Gray's  and I thought 'Ending the ongoing Stolen Generation'  the Stolen Generation hasn't ended.  It's actually got worse.  50% of the kids in care in this State are our kids, and we're 3% of the population.  We aren't bad parents but we just need a legup sometimes and that legup comes from not having the same opportunities with housing and land and education, and UTS does a great job in closing the gap. 

So I could go on forever because this is, you know  43 years I've been doing this with darling Larissa's dad, who was one of the founding members of Link Up, and then I want to give a shoutout to her man too because he was the AttorneyGeneral who was brave enough to do the Bringing Them Home report.  So that was the catalyst for this country to stand up and have a look at what it's done and not to let it happen again.  Well, sadly it is happening again so we need to  we all need to rally round because the only way things seem to take attention is if you put a dollar sign on it.  Well, it costs $63,000 a year to keep a kid in care and if the housing is the issue, in three years, you'd own a house in Weyland.  I feel like I'm doing a lecture now but I don't want to.  I just want people to  when they see a damaged Aboriginal person, just don't think, "Oh, they're a drunk" or something.  Just look at the back story to our history in this country.  So thank you for this opportunity.  Sorry if I put a dampener on it, but the shining light is our dear Larissa and her dear man and the rest of the mob that are onside  Elaine; I have forgotten your name now.  Oh, Kylie.  So I am old and I'm allowed to forget, apparently  someone said that.  But thank you all for coming because it's really important because you will go and you'll spread this word to another 10 people and so there's hundreds of people that will be talking about anti racism and it's really a good conversation to have.  So mwah, mwah, mwah.  (Applause). Dropped the stick! Did I do an Acknowledgment?  

INTERIM PRO VICECHANCELLOR AMY PERSSON: I think you did it in spirit.  Thank you so much.  And I'm also going to acknowledge that we're on the traditional lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my respect to Elders past and present and acknowledge that this land was never ceded.  This always was, this always will be Aboriginal land. 

I do want to start on a downer either, Aunty Glendra, but we are all I think in this room aware that there are significant societal challenges and divisions playing out here in Australia and across the world.  These include racism and inequality, rising Islamophobia and antisemitism, and the ongoing injustices against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.  

Every day, systemic racism undermines Indigenous leadership and selfdetermination, holding Australia back from reaching its full potential. From those invasive and persistent acts comes a need for constant conversations and collective action: changes in laws and policies, but also shifts in society's thinking and tolerance for people whose views differ from our own. 

As a trusted institution, UTS is responsible for holding space for these conversations and supporting our diverse community of staff and students. And our community is indeed gloriously diverse.  About 40% of UTS students this year were born outside Australia and speak a language other than English.  Nearly 1% of students and 1.6% of staff identify as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, and while we absolutely want those numbers to increase, we should acknowledge, and we are proud of the fact, that we have the largest Indigenous Professoriate in Australia, which contributes to a robust Indigenous research environment.  I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the work the Jumbunna Institute of Indigenous Education and Research at UTS, which has a long history of research and advocacy on the effects of racism in Australia and its impacts on First Nations communities.  

This includes recently delivering the Call It Out Register, a collaboration with the National Justice Project, that offers an Indigenouscontrolled reporting platform, removing many of the usual barriers that inhibit reporting of racism; the Gari Yala Speak the Truth and Gendered Insights reports to address the gap in Indigenous employment, in partnership with the Diversity Council of Australia.  And as Aunty said, ongoing advocacy and work to stop the removal of First Nations children from their families, communities and culture, happening at rates higher today than at any other time in Australian history. This is a national shame. 

The diversity of our university community is one of our great strengths.  Our staff and students bring to campus a range of perspectives and deeply held beliefs about social issues and political matters.  As a university, we must respect these perspectives and find ways to accommodate and encourage the expression of differing views and experiences.  Academic freedom is a key principle for universities, alongside freedom of speech.  However, there are clear boundaries concerning racism and hate speech.  And we expect all members of our community to treat each other with respect, kindness and care and that's part of I hope what we're trying to do today, to allow a space for difficult and at times confronting conversations but treating ourselves, our fellow panelists, our fellow audience members with respect, kindness and care. 

I commend the Australian Human Rights Commission and Race Discrimination Commissioner Giridharan Sivaraman, whom I will introduce shortly, for announcing a ground breaking study aimed at better understanding and addressing the dangerous prevalence of racism in Australian Universities.  The study was a recommendation in the Australian Universities Accord Final Report, which we fully support.  It will have a strong focus on First Nations students and staff, a priority as we advance anti racism efforts in Australia.  

We look forward to working with the Human Rights Commission and the Commissioner on this study.  I'd now like to introduce Commissioner Sivaraman, who I invite to join me on stage.  The Commissioner commenced as Australia's Race Discrimination Commissioner in March 2024.  His role is to promote equality between people of different backgrounds, conduct research and educational programs to combat racial discrimination and protect people from unfair treatment or vilification based on their race, colour, descent, visa status or national or ethnic origin. 

Prior to becoming Commissioner, Mr Sivaraman was Principal Lawyer with Maurice Blackburn, the Chair of Multicultural Australia and a member of the Queensland Multicultural Advisory Council.  After his keynote, the Commissioner will join a panel discussion, led by Dr Elaine Laforteza, on UTS's ongoing efforts to promote anti racism, both on and off campus, and the essential steps universities must take to create an inclusive environment for all.  Welcome, Commissioner Sivaraman.  (Applause).   

COMMISSIONER SIVARAMAN: Thank you very much for that very warm welcome and thank you to UTS for the opportunity to speak today.  I'd also like to thank my adviser Naz Jacobs, who helped me with this speech today. 

Thank you very much, Aunty Glenda, for that wonderful Welcome.  It was a cleareyed Welcome as well, recognising that however far we've gone, we've got so much further to go.  I'd also like to begin by acknowledging that I speak to you on the unceded lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my deep respects to Elders past, present and emerging and I'd like to extend those respects to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are here today. As I'm speaking to you at a university, I think we should acknowledge that the ways of knowing, being and doing are First Nations people, which stretches back tens of thousands of years, is the foundation of this country. 

We just heard that the UTS community is proudly diverse and, of course, many of you that are here today or listening online will bring a particular cultural heritage, experience, in some cases language, perhaps religion, and most undoubtedly, an understanding of the world.  I want you to treasure that heritage.  I want you to treasure that understanding.  I want you to treasure that unique perspective that you have that is a product of everything that makes you because it's that which makes a fabric of this university and this country prosperous and successful.  It's also a true reflection of the history of this country.   

To begin with, we have the oldest continuous culture in the world.  Just a week ago, I was privileged to be at the Yothu Yindi Foundation's Garma Festival in remote Arnhem Land, with my colleague Katie Kiss, who is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner.  We heard from many amazing First Nations academics, activists, students, poets, artists and so many more.  But what profoundly affected me, though, was the sense of power and resilience that I could feel around and through the land.  It almost felt like it came up through the red dirt into my bones as I walked barefoot, something I haven't done for a very long time.  I felt this as a power of a deep connection to country that had withstood invasion and shocking racism for centuries.  It was also a power born of the generosity of the Yolngu people, who so graciously welcomed me and many others into their wisdom and their land. 

That rich fabric of our society is a true reflection of First Nations people's deep connection over millennia to this country but is also a true reflection of the migration, the more recent migration, to this country.  Makassan traders from the Sulawesi region of Indonesia began trading with Aboriginal people in the 18th century, and I discovered when I was with the Yolngu people that language has been imprinted into both cultures due to that trading.  Words from the Makassarese language can still be found in Aboriginal language varieties in the northeast.   

If we move a little bit further along in time, there were 12 Africans on the First Fleet.  It's a littleknown fact but it is true.  During the 1800s, we had significant migration from China, Afghanistan, India, other places and despite huge pressures to assimilate, sometimes legislatively imposed, sometimes violently imposed, people descending from those groups, some people, have managed to retain their culture right until today, and if you're ever in Queensland or Brisbane, my home state, I'd recommend you get in touch with Janeth Deen, who maintains the Islamic Museum of Queensland.  Her family descended back from about 110 years ago. 

But there's a reason why this broader, richer recognition of history matters.  It goes to our identity, and Aunty, you mentioned that.  It's really important what you said about identity.  I went to university more than two decades ago.  Comes into here was a bit weird because I thought god, it's been that long since I've been at a university, but anyway.  I went to Macquarie University.  And I remember when I started, it's more than two decades ago, but I remember being drawn to people of southAsian origin.  There was the Indian Society, the Sri Lankan Society, probably lots of other  societies.  My recollection  and perhaps this has changed  is that the societies had a hell of a lot of focus on dance parties.  Each university's Indian society would have a dance party and each one would try to outdo the other one.  So I remember the word would be, "Oh, UNSW Indian party is coming up.  That's a good one." "USyd's coming up. That's a bit iffy."  "Oh, Macquarie. Who wants to go all the way to North Ryde?  No, thanks."  Perhaps it has all changed now.  Perhaps UTS parties are the place to be. 

But, more seriously, the real question is why did we all drift together? It's not even something I thought about until I started writing this speech for today, and Naz, my adviser, encouraged me to look at it.  I think now, looking back, it's because starting university was daunting.  It was a whole new world, a whole new way of learning, and you wanted to be around people that understood you, understood the way you're brought up, understood your cultural customs.  You wanted to feel like you belonged.  And university wasn't necessarily that place outside of the Indian clubs and societies, did it feel like a culturally safe place? Could you speak languages other than English in classes? Did you have a safe place to pray? Were your tutors educated in the various cultural backgrounds of their students? Could you wear traditional dress without feeling out of place? None of that was the case when I was at university.  I assimilated to fit in.  I had my Indian society.  Outside of that I had to try and be like everyone else.  And perhaps it's changed.  I don't know.  But I hope that the university racism study, which I'll come back to, will reveal something about this. 

But what I'm describing in terms of feeling safe, feeling like you belong, feeling like you can be your whole self, your own sense of identity  I keep looking at Aunty Glenda because this is what she talked about  all of that is what is denied by structural racism, and universities are part of structures, but let me explain what I mean in terms of structural racism, and I think the starting point  and this is really important racism isn't about race; it is about power and privilege.  If you are white, it is about the power and privilege to know that the institutions around you were built by people like you, built for you and privileged people like you.  It is a power and the privilege to know that you do not have to diminish yourself in any way to access those systems. I'll explain what I mean by this, and this is work that we have discovered in the preparation of the national anti racism framework.  In our health systems, it is the power and privilege to know that when you see a doctor or go to a hospital, you'll be believed, that you won't be thought of as having higher pain thresholds, that you'll get a health outcome that's actually designed based on you.  For some of our communities and the communities that I've spoken to, they don't even get past the basic threshold of being understood in hospitals and doctors' surgeries.  In education, throughout our consultation with the national anti racism framework, we heard stories of experiences of racism occurring as early as preschool, and that sadly won't be a surprise to many of you, but it permeates throughout the education system right up to the university level.  Of course, whilst the university study recently announced the Australian Human Rights Commission has done work that has shown experiences of racism going back in many different ways in the university sector, particularly for First Nations students and staff. 

When it comes to the media, racism is the power and the privilege of looking at the media and always being represented, always being centred, and on commercial TV and radio, nearly always being the mouthpiece for news stories, current affairs, whereas for communities like mine and many others, communities of people of colour and Indigenous communities, you are either completely absent from commercial media or you're tokenised or you're demonised.  

In the justice system, it is the power and privilege that when you see a police officer, your heart rate doesn't automatically quicken because you worry intensely about the next interaction you're going to have.  Why is it that some races are so grossly overrepresented in the justice system? No race is inherently bad.  That is as a result of the way structures and systems operate, to disenfranchise some.  In workplaces, many people in the communities I engage with ask me why is it so much more difficult for people of some racialised backgrounds to get employment in their chosen field?  Why is it so hard to get overseas qualifications recognised? Does UTS recognise only some overseas degrees components? How does it pick and choose? I'm not sure.  Does it have an antiracist approach when doing so? When applying for jobs, how many of us know of or indeed ourselves have changed our names when we apply for jobs just to make sure that we overcome what we know will be racist barriers that are in place, and even if we do get jobs, why don't we progress to senior levels?  

When I look at the senior levels of corporations, boards, the Public Service, politics and, of course, universities, why do I see so few people of colour? And then to get to those positions, and this is important, to get to those positions, why do we need to shed ourselves of everything that makes us different? Our language, our religion, our culture, our dress, everything that makes us different but the colour of our skin, the one thing we cannot change, which ironically means we will still be the victims of racism.  That is how structural racism operates to diminish us, to reduce  us, so that we can progress within the society that we are in or with the institutions with which we engage.  To understand that, you have to have an understanding of racial literacy. 

On an interpersonal level, racial literacy, what I mean by racial literacy is the way in which you perceive someone.  When I walk into a room, someone will have particular set of assumptions of me, just by looking at me or my name before they hear me speak.  But, on a structural level, it is understanding how systems and institutions disadvantage people of some races that I have just described, in health, in education, in media, in workplaces.  You have to remember that these institutions, these structures, often, including some universities, are created during colonial times and they were baked in during the White Australia policy.  They are now, of course, meant to let everyone in, but structurally do they do that? That is why we need universities and institutions to broadly commit to anti racism, and I'm so pleased to see UTS name it.  As I've said previously, you have to name the beast to slay it.  You have to name racism to tackle it. 

So often I see word on cultural diversity or multiculturalism as social cohesion, but not anti racism.  Progressing cultural and linguistic diversity doesn't deal with anti racism.  As a starting point, not everyone who is culturally and linguistically diverse suffers racism, and sometimes diversity and multiculturalism tolerates cultural difference but doesn't challenge an unjust society based on white supremacy.  When those that are multiculturally diverse or they're nonwhite, it centres white power and it makes the nonwhite inferior.  That is why it doesn't always challenge racism. 

So, in my view, the path forward for diversity and inclusion must be paved with the concrete of anti-racism. UTS has stated that Social Justice and Inclusion are key to its mission and values.  You have said you are committed to the economic, social and cultural prosperity of your community, our community  we're all part of the same community  and aim to ensure a just and equitable society.  If you want to achieve those aims, you must take an antiracist approach.  You cannot be committed to the prosperity of a community if that community is diminished and reduced and doesn't have a whole sense of identity so as to succeed.  That is if your community doesn't feel culturally safe or understood, feels like it can't speak in language, feels that its qualifications aren't recognised, feels like it cannot prosper with its whole s self without assimilating, then you have not assured their prosperity.  I truly believe that you're up for that challenge from what I have heard this morning and I'm really grateful to hear of your strong commitments to it. 

I hope that in conducting the Australian Human Rights Commission historic study into racism in universities we will find out more about the way in which racism operates, particularly in a structural way, and all forms of racism will be addressed in this project.  I know that the recent cause for alarm or areas of focus have been antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab racism recently seen on campuses, and that, of course, will be looked at, but we will be looking at systemic practices of racism and there is a particular focus on First Nations students and staff, which was the subject of a number of other recommendations of the Accord, and, Professor Behrendt, I congratulate you on the wonderful work that you and your coauthors did in preparing that report and those recommendations. 

We will also look at the experiences of international students, which is a very significant aspect of the study, and we will be looking at the experiences of all negatively racialised communities in universities, and not just students but also staff and whether staff are prevented from progressing because of systemic racism. 

As I mentioned, the study implements part of a key recommendation from the Australian Universities Accord Final Report.  It's intended to be the first step in the design and development of a national longitudinal approach to measuring and tackling racism in the tertiary sector.  It also follows more than 20 years of research by the Australian Human Rights Commission and other organisations that we've worked with which have recommended a comprehensive examination of systemic racist practices and behaviours at universities and some of those previous projects and research that was conducted by the Commission highlighted the racism endured by Arab and Muslim students following the 9/11 attacks, the victimisation and exploitation of international students during the pandemic, and the experiences of First Nations students and staff who are grossly underrepresented and have often sadly reported feeling culturally unsafe in the university environment.  All of these will be points of focus in the study, but the underlying issue is why is it when there are ruptures in our society does the bile of racism so easily spill out? Why structurally does that happen and what do we need to change?  

The approach of the study will be similar to the Australian Human Rights Commission landmark Change the Course, a 2017 report into sexual assault and harassment at Australian universities.  That used a traumainformed approach and it will hear about the lived experiences of people of different backgrounds and beliefs.  People's testimonies will be anonymous and ensuring their welfare will be a key priority.  Additional research will be undertaken to assess structural racial barriers. 

We're only in the early phase of our planning and approach to the study, determining the scope and working to define parameters, objectives and deliverables, but it's important that we do this work and it is important and it is so heartening to hear UTS commit to it and I truly hope others follow your lead and work collaboratively with us and also implement any subsequent recommendations.  That is important because all of us here have an important role in creating a stronger and more inclusive society that begins with honesty, a willingness to hear the voices of those that have been negatively racialised.  But if we start from that platform, I really hope that working together we can create a more prosperous community and a just and equitable society.  Thank you.  (Applause).  

ELAINE: Just a little bit of height adjustment, as you can see.  We will make way for that. Hello, everyone, and firstly, I want to say thank you so much to Giridharan for your insightful and incisive keynote today. The way that you mapped out how privilege works from a systemic level and the rich history that we have as a culturally diverse nation is really significant, so I'm so thankful that you're here today and that we're having this discussion at UTS. 

Also about the Australian Human Rights Commission study to ask students and staff about their experiences of racism is highly significant and personally and professionally really exciting for me because I think we all know in this room what gets measured matters and what matters gets done.  So it's getting attention.  It's getting leverage.  It's getting legitimacy and together I think everyone said it so beautifully, together we are stronger.  So I would really like us to think about that and think about it moving forwards as well. 

By way of introduction, yes, it might look like who is this random person up on the lectern now who has to adjust the microphone? It is me! I'm Dr Elaine Laforteza and I'm the cultural diversity project officer here at UTS and I'll be moderating today's discussion.  To begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and I would like to pay my respects to Elders past and present and to thank Aunty Glendra in particular for your beautiful welcome to country.  She's amazing.  I'm fangirling now but I could do this for the whole event!  

I would also like to pay my respects and acknowledge any First Nations person joining us here today on campus and also online.  I would also like to acknowledge that as a nonIndigenous migrant to this country, I have accrued a whole host of privileges based on the ongoing dispossession of Indigenous sovereignty.  So I would like to acknowledge my own commitment to continuous learning, continuous listening and continuous unlearning actually, to support decolonising work, and I'm so glad that I have a place like UTS that encourages and supports this kind of work. 

I would also like to flag that today's discussion may include topics that are upsetting or triggering, and if at any time you feel overwhelmed or distressed, please feel free to take a break.  You can step away from the event, talk to someone you trust, and on the Zoom chat, you will also see the list of services and resources that you can access or if you're here today on campus, you can scan the QR code and that same list of resources will show up. 

So showing up, speaking of, to acknowledge the impact of racism is no small thing.  We have an important and evertimely discussion today at UTS about the role of universities and, in particular, UTS to actively drive anti racism efforts on campus and off campus as well because obviously we don't just exist in a bubble. At UTS we have undertaken pilot sampling of asking staff and students who identify as coming from a culturally and racially marginalised background about their experiences of cultural diversity and race on campus.  Here at UTS, we are ready to be actively involved in the Australian Human Rights Commission study and leverage our learnings from our experiences to support this, because our community stories have really helped to shape, to inform, the development of the UTS Cultural Diversity and Anti Racism Action Plan  that's a mouthful.  So we have a cool acronym, the CDAR, because, one, UTS loves a good acronym, and, two, we want to plant the seeds, till the soil, grow this CDAR together.  So many planting metaphors.  If people could clap, then I'd be... (applause).  Yes, thank you.  And hopefully you can take that with you because that's all my planting metaphors for the year! But we aim to cultivate this CDAR together.  It is currently in the works and we're working to launching that very soon. 

So joining myself and Giridharan on the panel, and I will make my way there as well...we'll just pretend I'm not doing any of this awkward sitting down.  Hello again! Now I'm on a chair. And joining me on the other chairs are Distinguished Professor Larissa  Behrendt AO, the Laureate Fellow at the Jumbunna Indigenous House of Learning at UTS.  She has helped shape Indigenous research and strategy at the university. She is also a lawyer, broadcaster and awardwinning author, director and filmmaker.  Please let's give her a raucous round of applause. (Applause). Come on, folks! It's Larissa Behrendt. 

I could keep going honestly  like, Chapter 1  about all our panelists but that would be the whole event.  On our panel we also have Professor Kylie Readman, UTS's Deputy ViceChancellor and VicePresident (Education and Students).  She is responsible for overseeing UTS's key priorities in teaching, learning and the student experience.  Again, a very warm round of applause.  (Applause). Thank you. 

Speaking of student experiences, we have our fabulous student rep on the panel as well with Salma Elmubasher, who is the Ethnocultural Officer at the Ethnocultural Collective, a part of the UTS Students Association, advocating for spaces for UTS students who identify as Black, Indigenous or as a person of colour to connect and organise together. Please let's give her a massive round of applause.  (Applause).  

Sitting next to me is Glen Babington, who is UTS's Chief Operating Officer and VicePresident, and is responsible  OK, wait for it, everyone  he is responsible for no small things: for the University's finance, marketing, communications, property, IT, HR and legal functions, as well as the Data Analytics and Insights Unit.  It's a pleasure to have you, Glen.  Thank you for being here.  (Applause).  

Also on our panel we have Professor Michael Blumenstein, who is currently the Deputy Dean (Research and Innovation) in the Faculty of Engineering and IT, which is UTS's largest and most culturally diverse faculty.  Thank you for being here, Michael.  (Applause).   

So you can see we have a jampacked session today, and thank you for clapping everyone because, honestly, showing up to speak, even about anti racism, to call it out, is no small thing, so I feel like everyone here deserves the claps and the support because again together we are stronger.   

We have given everyone the opportunity to ask questions as well.  You can do so via slido.  Please go to the link that you see on the slides, that you will see on the slides.  Yes, you can see them right now.  That's perfect.  On slido, you can upvote questions that others have asked and please do try to keep the questions relevant to the topics we're discussing today.  So to kick off our discussion, my first question is to Larissa.  Thank you, Larissa.  So UTS has a commitment to First Nations selfdetermination.  Could you tell us what that means and how an institution like a university plays a role in supporting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people's rights to selfdetermination?  

LARISSA: Thank you.  It's a pleasure to be here.  I'm actually filling in for Robynne Quiggan, so I would like to just do one thing that we do to acknowledge First Nations selfdetermination, and that's just to acknowledge Country.  (Speaks in traditional language). And also acknowledging Robynne Quiggan, who is not here, but her Wiradyuri ancestry and paying respects to Gadigal, who've kept culture and storytelling strong, and, of course, deepest respect to the cultural leadership, wisdom and big heart of our Aunty Glendra, who is an important part of our community. 

So, as I'm filling in for Robynne, she sent me some notes and she gave a very long account of the history of selfdetermination under international law, but I'm going to take a slightly different approach because although I'm stepping in for her, I am a Black woman with my own thoughts, and what I guess I would encapsulate with that is that we do have a tradition of this principle under international law which was about the right to decide and have control over one's destiny and to have that done with respect.  This was obviously a concept that was developed between states and, very importantly, through the work that led to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People, there's a very strong account of what that means from a First Nations perspective.   

But I would say even though it's an international principle, I think with the work that we do at Jumbunna, when we talk about aspiration in communities that we work with, the idea of being able to have a say and in control over things that affect us is still a very central part of political aspirations.  So it's a human right, it's a political aspiration.  But I would also add that there's actually a research base for this.  There's a lot of research that shows that the more that we have First Nations people involved in identifying the problems within our community, in being involved in the design of the response to that and being able to take a lead in that, that we actually have better socioeconomic results and we've certainly got good data around that in health but that tends to be a researchbased approach.  So there's a range of reasons why selfdetermination is a really good framework for us to work in. 

What that's meant at UTS is that we have created a cultural space.  Jumbunna has a research arm, which I'll talk about in a little bit in a second, but also to acknowledge a very big part of its role is creating that cultural space for our students and also for our staff as well.  It goes to the point that the Commissioner made about how we need to find these spaces where we can be resilient to be able to do the cultural load but I think for us importantly from a research point of view, having that space has meant we have been able to design research projects in collaboration with Aboriginal communities, which has meant that our research has been much more useful to those communities, that it's been a codesign process.  That's meant a really fundamental shift that I think has improved the research that we do, that we don't go out and do research about Aboriginal people on issues that we think are interesting, but we respond to what the community thinks is important and see our role not as people who come in and do research but that we are research partners. 

A really big change in that thinking then is not just about rethinking what it means to be at university and operating in that space but it also means that we have rethought other fundamental things about the university space and I would point to the concept of Indigenous cultural intellectual property, which, of course, intellectual property was something that has traditionally been held by universities and in this space working with Aboriginal communities, we've been able to break that and say that any work that we do, that knowledge sits with Aboriginal research partners, and that's been no small thing.  So I think we've seen those ways of trying to, within an institution, change through these sorts of processes.  I think that's been a very self determining thing. 

Robynne would also want me to acknowledge that, quite rightly, our UTS Indigenous Education and Research Strategy, which has been ongoing, has put selfdetermination centrally, and that has meant coownership in leadership with the senior UTS Executive, including, of course, led by the ViceChancellor and the Provost, but also the DVCs and the Deans.  This is really important because it means that not all the cultural load is pushed by Aboriginal people trying to bring people on to our agenda but shares that responsibility for change.  Part of that has also been the implementation of the Indigenous graduate attribute, and I guess as Amy mentioned in her introduction, we do have the highest number of Indigenous Professoriate and that's partly because we have a large cohort within the Jumbunna space but also because we have Indigenous academics having leadership throughout the university in the faculties, which I would acknowledge is sometimes a much harder space to be in.  But that's been a commitment to structural change.  And, finally, of course, we've got the commitment to a national First Nations College.  Thank you.   

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Larissa.  (Applause). And it's great to know that this is all happening as we speak as well and the importance of having those culturally safe spaces and recognising cultural load as well because I think many of us in the room know that racism or the brunt of it, the responsibility to "fixing" it, in inverted commas, falls on people who are victims and survivors of racism, and that's a load that is very heavy. 

In speaking about that as well, I do want to check in on Salma and talk about if you can talk to us more about the Ethnocultural Collective, as one of these safe spaces, and can you tell us firstly what is it, what is the Ethnocultural Collective, how does the collective's work feed into the anti racism space at UTS, and why is it important to centre our students' voices in these kinds of discussions.   

SALMA: Thank you.  Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land that we stand on in my native tongue, which is Arabic.  (Speaks in Arabic). To answer your question, the Ethnocultural Collective is a support space for BIPOC students.  The Collective provides a safe space for Black, Indigenous and people of colour at UTS to feel supported and validated during their time on campus.  UTS has high rates of diversity with, in 2020, 47% speaking another language other than English at home and 48% being born overseas.  This Collective helps build these students, connect and build a sense of belonging between them through friendships, through discussions and making sure that these students feel validated in their feelings and essentially just not feeling alone and feeling like no matter how they may feel outside of that space, they can always have a space to come back to and speak about their experiences on campus.  

ELAINE: And that's a really beautiful thing, Salma.  Thank you for championing that and leading it as well.  (Applause). Thanks, Salma.  So, as I said, the burden or responsibility of racism often falls on the people hardest hit by it.   

I would like now to pivot to Glen to talk about systems and operates and how UTS actually handles things like structural barriers? How does the university address structural barriers through our business processes or staff recruitment, retention and promotion pipelines? And I know that's a big question.   

GLEN:  It's a very big question but one that's very welcome.  I think we might just start with understanding where we position ourselves as a university.  Our vision is that we're a university of technology that is known for its global impact, and if we're going to have global impact, we must be antiracist.  So really it's about, in terms of attracting diversity into our organisation, making sure our intent is clear from the top, and we do that from policy, which is endorsed by our University Council and our Executive, and we have our Equity, Inclusion and Respect Policy, Code of Conduct for staff and students, Rights and Responsibilities Policy, and  that's where we convey what our expectations are of behaviour and the way in which we operate. 

We have a page that is called Hiring Diversity.  It calls out the importance about when we go and seek people to join and contribute to us, it is without fear and favour of their background.  We start with that frame of mind right from the beginning in what we do.  We make sure that when we look at our roles, that we position, that they're not full of requirements and there's an opportunity for everyone to look at where they can contribute.  We make sure and always seek to make sure that we're using diversity boards to actually reach out and make sure that opportunity is clear.  Then when it comes in terms to the interviews, making sure that the people who are on the selection panels have had the requisite training in things such as unconscious bias and diversity. 

A new concept we're bringing into both  it's not necessarily that new  but a concept we're bringing into both recruitment, interviews and also our promotion interviews is talking about and asking about people's life experiences and look at their contribution relative to their opportunity.  That's recognising the richness that all of our backgrounds can provide in an organisation.  The research is really loud and clear about organisations with greater diversity perform better.  So the environment we're trying to seek to create here in terms of diversity has been reflected in what Larissa spoke to in terms of Jumbunna and the fact that we've got a Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion, to make sure that that is really clear, that that's a structural change that we've made to make sure that we are committed to inculcating an environment that is clearly antiracist. 

In the last year I've had the opportunity to be involved in a project called RISE, which is looking at and trying to understand the structural barriers to women in middle management in terms of structural barriers from their cultural or racially marginalised backgrounds.  That's been fascinating.  We're doing that in conjunction with the Diversity Council of Australia, International Settlements, and the Chief Women's Executive.  One of the things that's really coming out, because it's a project that's actually focused on the voice of those women, is it's about having the conversation.  That's the starting point.  That's why we're investing in occasions like this to have the conversation.  As Aunty Glendra said, it's hard to talk about racism in Australia and we're determined to do that because we really do believe that diversity is important for the success of our university but also our society.  I'm keen to take questions from there.   

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Glen.  (Applause).  I also would like to thank Glen for being the executive sponsor of the RISE program.  So that's another acronym, and it's Realise, Inspire, support and the E, does it stand for Elaine, which is my name? No.  But equally important to energise.  And what Glen is talking about as well is the importance of a project, an initiative like this, it does take that intersectional lens.  So looking at culture, race and gender in terms of the workplace and partnering with organisations like Diversity Council Australia, for example, really amplifies our own work into enabling anti racism on campus.  So I'm very thankful for that. 

Now, in terms of it is about racism, so more questions on structural barriers.  So Kylie, this one's for you.  How is UTS working to remove barriers that have kept students from marginalised backgrounds accessing higher education?  

KYLIE: Thanks, Elaine.  I think it's important to acknowledge that some of the barriers have been established as a result  all the barriers have been established as a result of the initial colonisation and takeover of this land, which is unceded land in this place, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, and I think if we think about reconstruction, which is what's required here, we can't do that without thinking about that first. 

Recommendation 1 of the Accord talked about the objective of a national tertiary education system, so not just universities but looking wholistically, but it asked us to look beyond just ourselves and what we do; the fundamental work of the academic endeavour, which is research and education.  It says: the objective of a national tertiary system is to underpin a strong, equitable and resilient democracy and to drive national economic and social development and environmental sustainability. 

What I like about that is that it says we exist not for ourselves or by ourselves but for a higher purpose, and I think if we think about that, that should engage us in the anti racism work that needs to happen in order for us as an institution within a system to take action with that intent in mind. 

I think that the Commissioner strongly pointed out the fact that systems and structures are much more likely to reproduce existing inequity, rather than to reconstruct it.  I think we must be relentlessly critical of ourselves and each other and with our university to make sure we don't do the things that reproduce marginalisation. 

So having a program like RISE is not just about enhancing diversity; it's making sure diverse voices are heard at every level of the university so that reconstruction can happen.  It's not just so that we can report on the statistics; it's actually so that things can be different as a result, and without that, the likelihood of them being different is lessened because people around tables in all levels of corporate Australia do not represent the kind of diversity that we want or require for anti racism to even be part of the conversation.  I agree with Aunty Glendra that it is a good conversation to have, a critical conversation to have, if we want to start thinking about removing barriers.  

So I think access is one thing.  It's a first step.  So we need to be thinking all the time about how we enable access to education, recognising that people come to education and higher education with their own life load experience and stories, of being excluded potentially, of being underserved, and other groups will come with not that story.  So we don't start from an equal starting place when students start university. 

So while access is step one and participation is important  and when I think about equity, diversity and inclusion, we can't not think about justice.  So participation in higher education and ensuring that people have the tools that they need and the frameworks that they need and the support that they need to participate in education is really important.  But the key measure for me, the one I think we should hold ourselves to account for, is success, that we have success graduation rates, we have transition to employment rates, that support the idea of reconstruction.  I think that that's where we really need to start looking, not just at how many people enter higher education, enter UTS, but how many people are still there at the end.  We know that different groups of students and different individuals will require different things, from very practical things like financial support, to cultural things like safe spaces to operate within, but also the university  and this is what I mean about being relentlessly critical  we have to look at what we are doing to create barriers.  I think many of them are unintentional.  The consequences are not visible to the people who've created them.  But we have to look at those and we have to be brave enough to undo them.  I think that is the work that will really make things different because when people feel like they are in a space that truly encourages them, truly recognises them, is not forcing them to assimilate to the practices of the university, but is changing itself to make itself more attractive to a diverse group of students, then we are starting on the path that will lead us to being able to have really active anti racism in place at the university.  Thanks.  (Applause).   

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Kylie.  So many points there I really resonated with but especially your call to courage, the courage to care, the courage to be critical, which can be superhard, especially when you're immersed in a culture and a system which enables a certain mode of doing and being and belonging, which we know can be unjust and your call for justice as well is highly, highly relevant there, so thank you so much, Kylie. 

My next question is for Giridharan.  Now, your study with the Human Rights Commission aims to address all forms of racism, as you mentioned, including antisemitism, Islamophobia and racism against First Nations peoples and so on. How will this study centre the voices of those affected and what positive impact do you envision for them? For us really?  

GIRIDHARAN: That's  thanks, and thanks for everyone's contributions.  Sorry, I will answer the question.  I just want to call out Jumbunna Institute does fantastic work.  They produced a report in conjunction with Indigenous X for the Australian Human Rights Commission recently mapping out anti racism across all levels of government.  It's a brilliant report.  I recommend all of you read it.  What it showed was that many areas of government don't even want to use the word "racism".  So it's a bit hard to collect data on racism when some areas of government don't want to use the word. 

In terms of the university study, I think to draw on the comments just made, what I'm truly hopeful is that we'll see coming out of it is a change to the structures.  So you want people to be able to prosper with their whole selves and you may have to think differently about the way in which you envisage the very institution of a university for that to happen and make sure it doesn't privilege one group of people to the detriment of everyone else. 

So I'm hoping that it's broad in its remit and that it gives universities  I hope that universities participate wholly and fully with the preparation to be self critical.  Clearly UTS will do that.  That's clear to me from this morning, and I hope others follow suit.  And then are prepared to actually bring about significant changes, structural changes.   

Finally, the Accord mentions in a number of different areas in its recommendations the unique position of First Nations from staff and students, and so I really hope that we can really draw that out in terms of the study.  

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Giridharan.  And I think what you have said, and what people have been saying throughout today, is this necessity to call things out but also to actually listen to what's being said and then to action it from that structural perspective. 

My next question is for Michael.  So the Faculty of Engineering and IT is the university's biggest faculty and is a melting pot of people from diverse backgrounds.  So how does your faculty foster respectful conversations and interactions amongst its students and staff and has it been more challenging at the moment?  

MICHAEL: Thanks for your question.  The Faculty of Engineering and IT is an extremely diverse faculty and I've only really started digging into some of the statistics around that.  I was taken aback by the fact that our staff complement, 86% is born overseas, the academic staff.  That is huge.  And, of course, panelists have been talking about the diversity around Indigenous students and also just the regular  the student base being significantly comprising international students as well, which we have significant amount in both the post graduate but also in PhD students as well.  So I think what's really important for us is similar to what you were saying just now about taking stock and looking at what can we do to improve scenarios in the faculty to ensure that there is a really positive approach to looking at inclusivity, focussing on anti racism, but calling things out as well is a really big part of that because at the end of the day, if things aren't addressed, then they just keep progressing.  So there's three things that I think we've looked at.  One of them is expectations, and expectations of both students and academic staff in the faculty, and it goes back to something very administrative but important, which Glen spoke about, which is our codes of conduct and UTS student rules and so forth.  It's the blueprint for looking at how we interact, but it's all on paper.  To some people it's esoteric  you know, what does it actually mean? But I think if we start in the right place of ensuring that we understand and have expectations of how we interact, it's a really positive approach. 

The second element is creating the environment for prosperity and inclusiveness amongst people from across the student and staff divide but the community more generally.  It's an acknowledgment that we have a variety of cultures, a variety of international backgrounds and students of all varieties that have come from either internationally or are our First Nations students.  We've got to acknowledge that whole element by saying: what can we do to create the environment that makes sense for the best possible outcomes? So that involves people needing to understand they have access to training, for example; understanding respectful conversations; understanding that there are things we need to do to improve constantly and it just can't sit there in a void without constant introspection and feedback.  I think this applies within the classroom.  It applies within how academics undertake their research, our PhD students undertake their research. 

So we've started a lot of activities which are trying to create that environment.  So we now have a respectful behaviours paper that's going to outline how we would like the environment of interaction of students and staff and having that place where people feel safe and inclusive.  We're working towards a teaching and learning inclusion framework, or toolkit, sorry, which really has a variety of elements to it that will inform students and staff alike about where we'd like to go in our journey towards inclusivity, and I think the other thing that we're really proud of is that we've got lots of mechanisms beyond the classroom for students to have meaningful conversations or contributions to the faculty.  I'm really proud that we've got probably one of the most active diversity, inclusion and equity committees in the University.  Maybe I'm overstating that, if other faculties are here who want to contend that, but I think we started quite, I suppose, in a humble way, doing some initiatives which were sending signals.  We, for example, have core hours  we were the first Faculty to create core hours in the university so that there was opportunities for equity for parents and people that couldn't be on campus for certain periods of time because of responsibilities and family matters and other things, small things, but they build into pretty large things.  Now we've got an international subcommittee.  Basically, it's an initially geared towards staff, so actually saying we acknowledge the diversity within our staff.  How do we make them feel welcome? 86% is huge of a base of students that are born overseas.  How do we ensure that when they arrive they know what's available to support them and so forth? So we had our very first welcome event for international staff last week.  We do a lot for our students but we don't also always have that interaction with our staff and acknowledge that there is diversity there. 

In terms of our committee, we have elected student representatives from post graduate and undergraduate programs and we're always ensuring that their voices are heard and captured within what we deliberate on and what future plans we have to improve.  I think it's a journey for us in that. 

I think also we have probably the strongest women in engineering and IT group in the country.  Again, I hope I'm not overstating that.  Over 40 years old.  But what was interesting in my conversations and interactions and I do spend a lot of time discussing matters with our women in engineering and IT unit is that they're also looking at their cohort of women that are diverse as well, and there are activities, there are events, that celebrate all cultures and backgrounds.  I think we need to look at it in multiple dimensions so it's that intersectionality piece.  It's looking at what other things that existing groups can do to create an environment of support for everyone.  I think going back to what I was saying around respectful behaviours and respectful conversations, I think we all have a duty to ensure that if we are having conversations about controversial topics and, of course, there are many at this juncture, but as was pointed out early in the keynote, there have been many in the past and we've got to actually be ready for maintaining our position as a university and, in our case, as a faculty, that encompasses all of the views but also makes it clear that the views that are expressed should be done in a respectful manner so that encourages debate and open conversation. 

So I think my last thing that I wanted to touch on is that if we're going to do things  in my case as a faculty  there has to be not just the policies and the environment; there has to be practical activities to enable people to express themselves but also to feel safe in the environment that they're in, whether it's a classroom, whether it's a PhD student with a studentsupervisor relationship, whether it's academics and students having robust conversations.  I think we're a university so we are very much looking at academic  we're always thinking of what is an academic argument, what's the data that supports it, what are the facts.  We are driven by that because we always want to get to what we would say is the truth, whatever that may be, but you can only get to that through those respectful conversations.  For us, it's still a journey and there's a lot more to do.  If we acknowledge that as the first step to creating an environment that's antiracist but also very much inclusive, then I think we'll make good strides in the future.   

ELAINE: Great.  Thank you so much, Michael.  (Applause).  Acknowledging all of that is baseline and I agree with you in terms of making respect the centre or the core of all our engagements, and also a shout out to the Faculty's Equity and Diversity Committee, who I have been working quite closely with, especially with the international staff and student piece, and that welcome event that Michael mentioned, I was able to provide what CSJI, Centre for Social Justice and Inclusion, do provide for our staff in particular, because those were the people in attendance.  And a shout out to that committee for being so passionate and driving this kind of change. 

I also resonated with what you said about feedback loops and how important it is to hear from your people, from your communities, and what they're saying, what they're addressing, because sometimes we may not hear or see that. 

Now, I will be looking at slido now.  So when you see me on my phone, I'm not taking selfies! I am just looking at the slido with my notverygood eyesight.  But one of the questions that people have upvoted is: how do we ensure work on antisemitism isn't conflated with criticism of Israel's apartheid against Palestinians, including occupation, genocide and land theft? So this is the question that has been voted the most.  If I can ask Giridharan, and then whoever else would like to speak, if you would be OK to answer that question?  

GIRIDHARAN: Yes, sure.  I anticipated I would get a question like that.  That's fine.  So I think the first thing to say is  let me put it in a couple of contexts here.  Firstly, the Australian Human Rights Commission performs a number of different functions.  There's a complaints process.  There's my role as Race Discrimination Commissioner. The complaints process handles matters under the Race Discrimination Act, and that is administered by the President, and then, of course, there's my remit as Race Discrimination Commissioner. Then my remit flows into this particular study that we're going to do. 

You probably saw from my speech that I don't dance around issues too much, and this is obviously going to be a central issue for some people; probably for some people in this room.  That's fine.  I understand that.  The first thing I'd say is: we haven't adopted a definition in terms of antisemitism as a Commission as a whole because, for one, if you adopt a definition, then you sometimes preclude people from bringing forward complaints, the same way in which we haven't adopted a definition of what is anti Palestinian racism.  That's caused us to be criticised by both people that say that we are not doing enough to combat antisemitism and people saying we're not doing enough to combat anti Palestinian racism.  But the thing is  firstly, the President administers the complaints function, so to adopt a definition has implications across the board.  Secondly, I think adopting a definition before you even commence a study into racism could prevent people from speaking up about their experiences.  I don't actually think that's a good idea.  I think that's a bad idea.  I think you come in open and say: "Well, tell us what you've experienced before", rather than us saying: "OK, well, that experience isn't valid or isn't going to count because we've come in with a particular definition". 

So hopefully that approach allows everyone to come forward and talk about what they've experienced.  Of course, there is going to be this potential friction point in terms of one person's  what we have seen in the past is that what some have described as racism, others have described as a statement of selfdetermination, and that is something we'll have to try to navigate our way through in terms of conducting the study.  But I'm not going to say now "This is the definition" because I think that would be really unhelpful in terms of the study we're conducting, and that probably won't satisfy everyone, but that's the position I think I have to take.  

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Giridharan, and I think you're right in terms of things being too proscriptive, which could be a way of gatekeeping people or disenabling people to actually share, if they think, "Oh, that doesn't actually fit my experience; this doesn't mean anything to me, or it doesn't resonate".  Thank you.  Thank you for that insight. Would anyone else like to answer that question on the panel?  

SALMA: I would just like to add that, in saying exactly what the both of you have said, there is no description or definitive answer as to what is seen as selfdetermination, what is seen as hate speech or discrimination.  The Ethnocultural Collective is dedicated to helping students from all different backgrounds and both sides of that coin to come and speak about their experiences and to express themselves and to know that it does not necessarily matter where you stand on that.  If you feel unsafe as a student, that's where we're concerned, and that's what we're concerned with.  And so I think that it's really important... (Applause). And so, yes, I think it's really important that there is no definition as of yet because I do think that it requires a lot of study and a lot of digging into how to navigate through this because it is a very touchy subject, and obviously I would know because I'm ethnically Palestinian, so I 100% see how that could be a very difficult thing to navigate through, and it's also quite a difficult conversation to have at universities and it is still pretty fresh in the media and stuff.  So definitely something that is very worth studying and thank you so much.  (Applause).   

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Salma.  I agree with you.  It's definitely worked studying and the fact that it's backed by the Australian Human Rights Commission, it's funded, gives it that legitimacy that, "OK, we can stop asking the question "Does racism exist?" because we already know, but what are its nuances, its specificities, how does it manifest, how does it affect us all, because we all have skin in the game, not just people of colour or culturally or racially marginalised.  So I thank everyone for being a part of this journey. 

Another question from slido, and I am aware that we are running out of time, so this could be the last one from slido  so this question is asking: interested to know the best way in which to involve community when developing anti racism strategies without needing to ask people to relive their trauma? That's a big question and I hope it will provide some clarity on some practical steps.  Larissa, can I ask you the question.   

LARISSA: Sure, and I guess my answer then follows up some of your wonderful answer to that last question, so thank you for that.  Look, I think one of the real impacts that we see from structural racism, it's the silencing of voices, whether it's in the criminal justice system or, as Aunty Glendra was talking about, within the child protection system or within the university, which is a microcosm of broader society, and I think we need to be aware that one of the real damaging things that racism  structural racism does is marginalise voices and silences people.  So it's probably one of the reasons why in First Nations methodologies we rely a lot on storytelling, and what I would say is there is always the need to be very mindful of not retraumatising people but there's also the need to acknowledge the need for people who have been marginalised to be reempowered to tell their story.  So a large part of that I think is us thinking about our own privilege, whatever our background, and being able to create space for other people to be able to tell that story.  There's a wonderful saying in our culture that our Elders speak of, Aunty Glendra lives this, and that is that true wisdom comes from listening, not speaking, and I think there's something in that, and being able to think about how we create the space for people to tell their stories and how we listen to that is actually a really important way of reempowering people who've been silenced by that structural racism, and that's why these cultural spaces are so important.  And knowing that it's all our responsibility to do that and that actually it's an important role for allies to call it out. 

One of the things we do with the Call It Out Register that's been mentioned is it's not just people who have suffered it but if you see it, you have a responsibility and you can make a claim that way. 

I just want to make one final point in relation to those cultural spaces.  At Jumbunna research, we do have that kind of cultural response but importantly it's really inclusive.  We very proudly have nonIndigenous people working in our Indigenous research unit because they are able to work in that space respectfully, they have  the thing that we share are shared values and that idea of being able to listen and to be able to be a conduit for other people in terms of how we operate. 

So I would end by saying that that is another way in which we can share this space.  It can be an inclusive space but it really does require us to listen, it requires us to listen to those who've been marginalised and to see how we can use our power to help them. (Applause).   

ELAINE: Thank you, Larissa.  Michael?  

MICHAEL: Yes, I wanted to also follow up on a slightly I suppose different angle, which is something I forgot to mention, which was that when we are going to be doing our teaching and learning, inclusivity toolkit, one of the things we want to do to have a space, I suppose, for students to be able to provide feedback is that feedback loop you were talking about earlier, and I think people can be in a classroom, for example, where material is spoken about, not understood sometimes because it's engineering or math, but other times it's something that just is triggering or whatever.  So one of the things that's going to be implemented in our faculty as part of that toolkit is empowering academics to ensure that they provide a pulse survey to our students on a regular basis but not too regular, just to provide confidential input into how they've experienced a particular class or a particular topic.  I think it's really important when we talk about safe spaces, I think obviously it will include First Nations people, it will include people from international, different backgrounds, but when in classrooms do we give time for that reflection to think about and provide input into the ongoing improvement? These are things that do happen.  We do it to ensure that people are learning and Kylie would probably say there are many feedback mechanisms to ensure that students are experiencing the learning element, but also what about other experiences they have within the classroom and things they are comfortable with or not? So giving that opportunity for that feedback and ongoing opportunity to provide input for the academic, the tutor, whatever it may be, it's just something we will focus on from our inclusion toolkit going forward.  

ELAINE: That's great.  Thank you, Michael.  Yes, Salma?  

SALMA: Just quickly, just to talk about it from a student perspective, students are the heart of the university and prioritising student voices, especially those who come from marginalised backgrounds, is essential to creating a safe university, not just a safe room or a safe faculty, but a safe university as a whole.  So when we put student voices at the forefront of our activism, we actually create a space that reflects adequately the diversity of our university and it is like Commissioner Sivaraman said, it's kind of built for the students but this would be built for everyone and their feedback is put forth and taken just as seriously as the white person's feedback.  (Applause).   

ELAINE: Thank you, Salma.  This is what at UTS we are working towards with the CDAR.  If you remember, I mentioned that earlier.  So that is currently in the works, again planting, growing, all the plant metaphors, doing all of that together. 

I do have time for one final question and that's for everyone here today.  Not everyone here today but we can talk later.  Everyone on the panel.  I will start with Glen and then move this way.  What's one thing that we do at UTS or should do to celebrate diversity and create pride and belonging in our UTS community and why is it important? And for Giridharan, not just in terms of UTS but in university spaces, thank you.  So Glen, one of the things we should do?  

GLEN: One of the things we do that I'm proud of is the commitment to training.  Through the centre of Social Justice and Inclusion we provide a whole range of training, whether it be in cultural diversity, looking at Indigenous diversity, equal opportunities.  We have a program that Kylie might be able to speak to, without wanting to put her on the spot, which sort of struck me about anti racism and belonging in the classroom, and that training really permeates this desire to make sure we do have a diverse student and staff body, and that's a real commitment that we'll keep so that we keep the conversation alive and we do it in a humble way so where we see ourselves falling down, we do report it and we address it and we learn from it.   

ELAINE: Thanks, Glen.  And Michael?  

MICHAEL: Thanks.  I think what we do do really well is events like this.  This week is focused on this ability for us to have these conversations, to call out things, to have really robust discussions around challenges that we face, whether it be racism or any other thing that's happening in the world or in our community.  I would say that from a faculty perspective, I mentioned a couple of examples where we celebrate diversity and inclusion but I think at a faculty level, from an improvement perspective, I would like to see more of that potentially, but I know how much time and effort it takes to put something like this together and this is a very showpiece event and series of events this week, but I think it's very clear from the people who are present and the people who are listening online that there is a real interest in having these conversations and I think UTS is known for being able to have those conversations in a very public way and I think we need to continue that and grow it and learn better ways to do it in the future.   

ELAINE: That's great.  Thanks, Michael.  That investment is key.  And, Kylie, what is one thing we do or should do?  

KYLIE: So many things.  I wonder, though, just like the Change the Course report, if the result of this report and research  there will be a range of responses from people going, "I can't believe this is happening in our universities", as happened with the Change of the Course report, to people going, "How could you not know this is happening in our universities?".  I guess for me, if we know, even if we know some of the things, we shouldn't be waiting for a report to take action.  So I'm really proud of the work we are doing to take action and I think we should continue to do that. 

The second equally important thing to do is to centre voices, as Salma has said, to make sure that as allies we're not talking over or across or instead of but actually to advance those voices.  So I'm really grateful that you're here today so that we can hear your voice.   

SALMA: Thank you, Kylie.   

ELAINE: Thank you so much, Kylie, and Salma?  

SALMA: I think something that UTS should do, and that's in the works probably with the CDAR program, but I think that an anti racism training module should be introduced the way that the Consent Matters module is mandatory for students on campus.  I think that it is so important and that students  a lot of them don't understand or might not really realise the implications of micro aggressions and unconscious bias and things like that, and they might not even realise that they're doing those things.  And so I think with that module, the way that every student is forced to take it to advance, they get to at least see, even if they're not going to take anything away from it in that moment, but it will be known to them that the micro aggressions that you make and the unconscious bias that you have does have consequences, and it usually is not on them but then now because of that module, they'll start to maybe pick up on how important it is to be aware of how their actions can affect others. (Applause).   

ELAINE: Thank you, Salma.  I really think it speaks to what, Larissa, you were talking about with the reempowering and the sense of healing through this kind of work.  So, Larissa, what's one thing we should do or do do?  

LARISSA: We've spoken a lot about things that we're proud of at UTS and things that we've achieved but I think we have to look at that as the low water mark and appreciate that this is a long journey, and this should be the start of a conversation and the start of self reflection, and I would suspect that there would be people in the university who feel like their voices aren't being heard and there would be people who probably think we're further along than we are.  So I think while we should celebrate what we have achieved I think we should see it as a springboard and to really continue to be reflective in this space and try to make our way through what looks like  would feel like best practice and centring student voices, centring diversity and that is a really key part of it.  But I think again just echoing what I said before, creating that space so people can tell their stories and giving them the honour of hearing their experiences is a really good first start. 

Finally, just to acknowledge the work of the National Union of Students and NTEU in the work they have done in previous years that really laid the groundwork for the Accord to make those recommendations going forward about the importance of racism surveys.   

ELAINE: Great.  Thank you so much, Larissa.  Thank you.  (Applause).  And to you, Giridharan.   

GIRIDHARAN: I can't actually remember the question that was especially for me!  

ELAINE: That's alright.   

GIRIDHARAN: "How do I stop racism"? Ok, that's easy!  

ELAINE: I thought we finished  we have ended racism!  We're just here for a chat! No!   

GIRIDHARAN:  Anyway, I'll finish in this particular way.  Two things.  Firstly, a very small but very powerful moment when Salma acknowledged Country and traditional custodians in Arabic.  I thought that was wonderful but it was also that way of connecting migrant culture to the longest existing civilisation in the world.  It was just a very beautiful moment. 

But in terms of more broadly, universities are institutions that reward knowledge being followed in a particular way.  That's how they're built because you have to do things in a particular way to get your degree and to get out into the world.  So that is the structure and that is how structural racism can manifest because you privilege a particular type of power and so for me, the courageous conversation that needs to happen is one where you're willing to relinquish some of that power because you understand that you have privileged some and not others, and that's what I hope to see as we move forward.  (Applause).  

ELAINE: We have come to the end of our discussion today, so have we fixed racism? Not quite.  But maybe in the next five minutes as we exit this place together we can continue on this journey of doing the hard work, the hard conversations, but the necessary listening.  In line with Salma, thank you for that Acknowledgment of Country in your mother tongue as well.  We are working on an acknowledgment  acknowledgments of country project here at UTS where we're asking UTS staff and students from culturally and linguistically diverse background to do a recording in their mother tongue, and also their stories as to the significance of this as well.  We also, for example, Lachlan McDaniel from Jumbunna has shared a beautiful story about him learning Wiradyuri.  We have Salma as hopefully part of that project as well.  But we have about 21 languages recorded.  And this project is probably my most favourite thing I have done.  I'm tearing up because of it.  But it's just beautiful work and I thank you for your support in that. 

Thank you to all of you here on the panel today and to everyone who has joined us on campus and online.  If anything has been of concern today, please refer to the support services and resources that are up on the slide and in the Zoom chat.  I'm sorry that we weren't able to cover all of the questions but feel free to email me all of the questions.  I can't solve all of the questions but I will do my very best to engage in discussion further if you feel like you need to do so. 

For those of us here today, please join us for morning tea just outside, and for those online, thank you for joining us today.  We hope to see you at the next event. Maraming salamat, in my mother tongue, and thank you very much in my adopted tongue, English.  Thank you, everyone.  (Applause).