Where theory meets practice – Australian Positive Organisational Scholarship (POS) Community of Practice
On 7 August 2024, the Australian POS CoP held its fifth virtual event on Positive Organisational Scholarship and Positive Psychology, to discuss purpose, meaning and values – as individuals and organisations.
How do organisations identify and enact purpose? How can we drive connection between personal and organisational purpose, meaning and values? And how important are these issues in navigating an increasingly complex world?
The webinar was both insightful and inspiring.
- Internationally acclaimed expert Professor Emeritus Robert E. Quinn: Co-founder and Faculty Advisory Board, Center for Positive Organizations and Margaret Elliot Tracy Professor Emeritus at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business – driven by a purpose to inspire positive change.
- Professor Carl Rhodes, Dean, UTS Business School: Leading a socially committed Business School
- Corene Strauss, CEO, Australian Disability Network: A cause-related CEO passionate about improving the lives of others and building communities for good
Hosted by:
- Dr Rosemary Sainty, UTS Business School: Thought leader bridging Organisational Psychology, Corporate Responsibility, Sustainability, and Governance.
- Dr Suzy Green, Founder & CEO of The Positivity Institute: Leader in the complementary fields of Coaching Psychology and Positive Psychology
Watch the webinar recording
Rosemary Sainty: Aus POS CoP
Rosemary Sainty: We'll just wait a couple of minutes to give everyone a chance to join the webinar.
Rosemary Sainty: Hey? The numbers are climbing quickly. I can see we've actually had more than 500 people register for this webinar, so it'll be interesting to see how many of you able to to
join us live.
Rosemary Sainty: And obviously, a number of you will be looking at the recording as well.
Rosemary Sainty: Okay. We might get started.
Rosemary Sainty: So yes, this is our 5th Auspos cop, our 5th Australian Positive organisational scholarship community
of practice. So thank you for joining us, and obviously a very popular and interesting topic that we're dealing with this
time around purpose, meaning, and values, driving the positive organisation.
Rosemary Sainty: So just to introduce your co-hosts. 1st of all, my colleague and partner in crime, Dr. Susie Green,
clinical and coaching psychologist and founder, and CEO of the Positivity Institute, and I'm excited to announce her
honorary role, which is an adjunct professor for us here at Uts business school. Hi, Susie!
Suzy Green: Hello, everyone, and thank you. Very excited to be here again.
Rosemary Sainty: And myself, Dr. Rosemary Sainty, I'm currently a business school academic here at UTS, with a
background in a range of things, including the UN global, compact and and community services and other things.
Rosemary Sainty: so before we get started, just an acknowledgement of country uts business school respectfully
acknowledges that we're located on the land of the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. The Gadigal people have cared for
their community land and waters for thousands of generations, based on their deep knowledge of their country.
Rosemary Sainty: We pay our respects to their ancestors, their elders, and acknowledge their ongoing status as the 1st
peoples of this land, and in my own teaching practice I've integrated a indigenous approach with this concept of India,
Mara or Rajuri word which actually means mutual respect, giving honour, and taking responsibility.
Rosemary Sainty: So what is the purpose of the POS Cop? This really came about from discussions with those of us that
are either in academia, research, teaching, and other colleagues and friends from the field of practice. And really it's
about supporting all of us researchers, teachers, practitioners interested in fostering positive organisations through deliberative forums.
And we've developed a sort of a prototype in a way of inviting experts
and leaders and interested people into the discussion forming a community of practice. And we'd also like to make a sort of a Thank you again, to the
founders of positive organisational scholarship from the Center for positive organisations at the Ross School of Business
University of Michigan for their support. And of course our guest, special guest Speaker today is from from that group.
Rosemary Sainty: A bit of Webinar housekeeping. So we're recording the webinar. And for all of all of you to the bit of
Rsv. Page. You'll receive a link following following today, and we'll also put together a web page where we'll be able to
put up any resources or references that have been discussed through the morning.
Rosemary Sainty: We're very keen to have an active chat. So please post your comments as we go through the morning,
and certainly our speakers have indicated they're happy for that to take place, and and may even be able to be
interrupted, depending on how that conversation is going.
Rosemary Sainty: We'll have the Q&A zoom function working, too. If you could post your questions there for the panel,
and we'll come to that later on in the session, and for accessibility we have closed captions that are available.
Rosemary Sainty: So the agenda.
Rosemary Sainty: So today is about a rapid escalation in the conversation about values led purpose and meaning
organisationally and personally, in a context of ongoing disruption and uncertainty in so many aspects of our lives and
our workplaces. So this is how we've set the discussion up for today. Suzy and I have given ourselves 5Â min to
introduce the topic, both from our different areas of expertise. So Susie will be talking about purpose in life.
Rosemary Sainty: and I'll do a brief piece on organisational purpose, and then we'll have our panelists, perspectives. 1st
of all, Professor Emeritus Robert Quinn, Bob leading thinker and academic and a POS co-founder. Bob will be talking
about the power of purpose and providing us with a brief overview.
Rosemary Sainty: We'll then hear from Professor Carl Rhodes, the Dean of the UTS Business school here at UTS, on
leading a progressive business school, and then our 3rd speaker, Corinne Strauss, who is the CEO of the Australian
disability network on leading dynamic, not for profit organisations. Once we've heard from our 3 speakers, we'll move
to a panel discussion and then open it up to Q. And a. For all of you to be able to join in in the discussion.
Rosemary Sainty: Okay, so we'll 1st begin with Suzy and and my brief of 5 min. So Susie Grand is a clinical and
coaching psychologist and founder, and CEO of the Positivity Institute, a positively deviant business dedicated to the
promotion of wellbeing in workplaces, and schools, Susie, would you like to introduce us to your topic?
Suzy Green: Thanks so much, Rosemary, and welcome to everybody. Thank you for joining us again. I also want to
give a call out to Professor Todd Cashton, who, I can, I think, is on the call today for his support, not just in preparation
for today's webinar, but over the last 20 years, Todd. I think when I 1st started teaching at Sydney, uni on applied
positive psychology and was looking at a lecture on meaning there really wasn't much around back in 2,004, besides Frankel's work
and a couple of early studies. So I did find some papers by Todd Kashton and Michael Stieger, who have become
wonderful colleagues of mine now, and they have very kindly supported me in my understanding of both meaning and
purpose.
Suzy Green: Next slide Rosemary. So the topic is a big one, which clearly, in 5 min I will only be very briefly
covering. There are. There is some confusion even within the scientific community around the terms meaning meaning
in life, purpose in life. I often, when I'm explaining it to people, sometimes it's more like people necessarily don't
want to know the meaning of life, which is a huge question. But most people want meaning in their life. But when we're
talking about purpose in life, and I'm really drawing on Todd's work. Here there was an incredibly important paper published by Todd and Mcknight, 2,009, which
really gave a wonderful definition that I've been able to memorize and quote over the years which the purpose is or
purpose in life is a central self, organizing life aim. So it's central because it becomes a predominant theme of a person's
identity.
Suzy Green: If I just pause for a moment, Rosemary, and I'm sure this is where you and I are line, and why we are you
know, working collaboratively, is that I have, for a significant period of my life felt that this is my calling, and of
course, there's been some wonderful work that's come out of the center for positive organizations, differentiating job
career and calling. And so for me, my purpose in life. I have a family, and that's very, very purposeful to me. But this has become a
predominant theme of my identity. Who I am. I read the scientific literature for fun. But I'm when I'm always thinking
about as a practitioner. How may this or may this not apply? It's self organizing in as much as that it provides this
incredible intrinsic motivation and energy.
Suzy Green: And for people that know me will know that energy, zest, energy, vitality, is one of my top strengths, and I
truly believe that that has become stronger and stronger over the years that I've been more connected to my sense of
purpose. And it is a life aim. It's a long term commitment. I've quoted there the wonderful work by Ken Sheldon that
was on self concordant goals, so goals that align to our core values. And I also was reading. I believe in Todd's paper
that as a life aim. It's also the acknowledgement and recognition that we may never achieve that in our lifetime.
And I think that's a really important talking point that I'd love Bob in particular to speak to today. Next slide Todd, and colleagues also recognize that there were 3 dimensions to evaluate how much a person's life is
actually driven by purpose. So the strength is it a. Is it a weak purpose or a strong purpose, and the influence that has on
our behavior? Again, using myself as a as a sample? It has a very strong influence. And in fact, Rosemary, I know today
you'd like to at some point speak to the dark side of purpose.
Suzy Green: And I'm I'm sure I can can attest to that, as can many other people listening today. Also the scope. So the
range of our life domains. And for me again. There'll be lots of people on this call today that have had conversations
with me. Outside of my profession, and you'll know that I somehow managed to weave in some aspect of positive
psychology or my purpose into my personal domain.
Suzy Green: And then, thirdly, awareness, the degree to which there's conscious clarity and articulation. So for me, that
conscious awareness became stronger over time. But I'm find that also very interesting, that for some people there may
not be a strong degree of awareness. And I'm also interested in understanding how that develops again. That might be
something that comes up in our conversation today.
Suzy Green: And next slide, Rosemary.
Suzy Green: This is a quote from a paper that I have quoted many, many years by Mcgregor and Little in 2,009, and I
think I quoted it. In one of our previous POS Cops, Rosemary and I find this interesting, this research that shows that
highly successful executives had habituated to their success, and we often do see this potentially after you've achieved a
certain amount of success in your career. So it says, suggesting that it's leaving integrity as the primary source of their
wellbeing, and that concerns with efficacy had be. Some had been supplemented by developmental concerns of
generativity, leaving a positive legacy and guiding future generations and meaning, and again, that strongly aligns to
where I'm at in this stage of my career.
Suzy Green: Next slide. And I won't have a lot of time to talk to this today. But it's something that I'm very, very
involved in and learning very much. Still, learning about adult development theory and leadership maturity. I'm working
quite closely with Dr. Mayas, Denajavic Andre at the moment from the Institute for Developmental Coaching and
understanding that particularly from a leadership perspective that we can move through these stages of leadership, maturity.
And if if you can see from the image there which is a beautiful image of this move from knowledge which tends to
occur when you're developing your career and you're becoming an expert and an achiever. But then, as we move into
into these post conventional stages. There's a shift in the way that we see the world.
Suzy Green: We see the systems and the interactions. And this alignment can also, or this recognition can also bring a
greater sense of awareness of our purpose and meaning. Again, I just wanted to make a very brief link there, because I'm
sure there are people on here today, coaches in particular that have been doing also a lot of work in adult development.
So I just wanted to make that link. But it is a big topic, Rosemary.
Suzy Green: and so I'd I'd like to hand over to you now to expand this in terms of its application in organisations.
Rosemary Sainty: Okay, thanks, Susie. We're down to 1 min now. So I have just packed this slide full of the things
that I think I'd like to to put into this conversation. So this is the organizational perspective on purpose from a
management scholar myself point of view, and so on the left hand side of the slide. Just a kind of historic kind of look at
this.
Rosemary Sainty: Organisational scholars have been looking at purpose and organisations for some time, and there's a
quote there from Mary Parker Follett, and this involves, you know, an understanding that organisations develop a
distinctive character with meaning and value that goes beyond technical efficiency and economic performance. So it's
been a long standing conversation here, but but really more recently I guess, because of things like the normalised bad behavior and loss of trust in business and profit.
Maximisation, you know, corporate calamities, if you like. The the idea of the purpose of the corporation has really
risen, risen up in the literature and in conversation and in business. So the 2 quotes that I've got there the 1st from Colin
Meyer, from the Uk.
Rosemary Sainty: The purpose of business is to solve the problems of people and plan it profitably and not profit from
causing problems. Sort of a negative focus, I suppose, but it's actually calling to account the organisational side of things here. And the second quote quite often used by colleagues. It comes
from the US. Business. Roundtable
Rosemary Sainty: companies should serve not only their shareholders, but also deliver value to their other stakeholders.
So this kind of plays to this stakeholder capitalism view that's taking hold. But you can see these kind of. They're quite
big shifts in terms of organisational purpose very recently is a very helpful special in a special edition of a special issue on corporate purpose from a journal called Strategy Science, which
I'd commend to you. And there's a link at the bottom of the slide there on this and a particular article from Beshirov and Mitzinik. I just wanted to point this out as a way of helping
sort of make sense of what we're talking about from an organizational point of view with purpose. So according to these authors, and I'm just going to briefly read off my notes here,
there's 3 types of purpose enactment. Once again, this is the organisational perspective that provides that organisational
context for the enactment of purpose. And so the 3 types that these authors identify
Rosemary Sainty: 1st type of purpose as the reason for being of the organisation. So where organisational members find
find meaningfulness and alignment from within, the actual purpose of the organisation itself.
Rosemary Sainty: The second is purpose as an alternative to profit maximisation. So this is where we see businesses
now looking beyond just profit, and into what sorts of positive social impacts they can make or environmental, a sort of
broader view, a kind of hybrid view of of balancing and and looking at purpose from a broader perspective, and then finally, purpose as a catalyst for systemic change.
And this is really where organisations are wanting to take an external focus and actually play a role in shaping broader
economic, political, social, environmental systems in which they operate. And we see that this in in initiatives such as
the UN global compact.
Rosemary Sainty: There's constraints that have to be recognised to have meaningful impact within and beyond the firm.
The purpose must be embedded in the organisation structures, or you risk value incoherence. And that's the problem
with burnout.
Rosemary Sainty: Another constraint purpose sits alongside profit in in business organisations, and this can give rise to
tensions.
Rosemary Sainty: And finally, from a systems perspective where organisations are really wanting to drive big time
change, they can come up against institutional inertia where the markets, regulation business associations, even business
schools, aren't there yet with this kind of thinking.
Rosemary Sainty: So let's move on now to our speakers, having provided that very brief context. And I'd like to
introduce our special guest for today. So Professor Robert Quinn, Bob.
Rosemary Sainty: The co-founder and Faculty Advisory Board member of the Center for positive organisations, and the
Margaret Elliot Tracy, Professor Emeritus at the University of Michigan, Ross School of business. Bob is in the top 1%
of professors cited in organisational behavior textbooks, the author of 18 books, including Deep Change, the economics
of higher purpose, the widely acclaimed Harvard Business Review article creating a purpose driven organisation and has one of the highest
rates of repeat invitations in the speaking industry. So we're we're really lucky to be able to have you here with us today,
Bob, thank you.
Robert E Quinn: I'm absolutely delighted to be with you.Let me get these slides up. There we go.
Robert E Quinn: I'd like to spend a few minutes. I want to kind of cut this in half. Spend a few minutes building on both
of the things you 2 just talked about.
Robert E Quinn: I want to spend a few minutes on personal purpose and then turn to organizational purpose, because I
think they really help to enlighten each other. And let me start with a personal case. It's about my daughter. She was getting older. She was quite happy not being married. And then all of a sudden, the biological clock started ticking,
and she started to speak differently. And then she'd said.
Robert E Quinn: My problem is, there's not a decent man left on the planet my age worth marrying and things started to get kind of tense. And then all of a sudden, Prince Charming rode into the
picture and things were great. For about 3 months.
Robert E Quinn: and then I walked in my wife's study and she was on the phone. It was clear she was talking to my
daughter. It was clear what happened. This guy had just dumped her and she was devastated. She's our firstborn and firstborn children tend to have a tendency. If they're miserable they want you to be miserable, too.
Robert E Quinn: And she said, I'm coming home this week, and I thought, Oh, no!
Robert E Quinn: And my wife said, You're the father. You go pick her up at the airport so I did.
Robert E Quinn: She got in the car. She didn't say Hello! How are you? She's that no good. Dirty enough for 5Â min,
she went on finally took a breath. I said, Are you problem solving or are you purpose? Finding?
Robert E Quinn: She didn't even hear me, she went on for another 5Â min. Well, this process repeated 4 times. The 5th
time we're pulling in the driveway.
Robert E Quinn: And I said, Are you problem solving or purpose. Finding she went dead quiet.
Robert E Quinn: she said, what are you talking about?
Robert E Quinn: And I said, well, I wrote that letter to your brother about purpose finding and problem solving sent you
a call. She stuck. She interrupted me, she said, this is the real world.
Robert E Quinn: By then we're in the house. I reached into a file cabinet, pulled out a sheet of paper. That, said Robert
Quinn.
Robert E Quinn: Life statement.
Robert E Quinn: She ripped it out of my hand. She started to look at it. She slowed down.
Robert E Quinn: She looked up, and she said.
Robert E Quinn: When you feel bad you read this and I said, No, when I feel bad I rewrite it.
Robert E Quinn: It's been written been rewritten hundreds of times.
Robert E Quinn: she said, yeah, I can hardly understand some of this stuff.
Robert E Quinn: I said, well, it's written to a customized audience of one
Robert E Quinn: and then the 1st miracle happened.
Robert E Quinn: she said.
Robert E Quinn: Do you think I could write one of these?
Robert E Quinn: I said, I am absolutely sure you can, and for the next day and a half she disappeared into a room working on her life statement. So the 1st miracle is, I didn't have to suffer for a day and a half.
Robert E Quinn: The yeah
Robert E Quinn: second marital coat occurred 3 days later.
Robert E Quinn: She was back where she was working.
Robert E Quinn: She sent me an email and she said he called me.
Robert E Quinn: he said, well, it's gonna be an interesting email.
Robert E Quinn: She tells the story of the call, and she said, when he hung up, I decided to write him this letter, and she
included the letter.
Robert E Quinn: The letter was breathtaking. It was incredibly vulnerable
Robert E Quinn: inauthentic. Here's how I felt when I met you. Here's how I felt when things were going good. Here's
how I felt when you dumped me.
Robert E Quinn: It was just a stunning letter, the next line said.
Robert E Quinn: but my roommates said you can't give this to him now. If you stop and pause for a moment and say, why not?
Robert E Quinn: The answer is really clear
Robert E Quinn: dating is a marketplace.
Robert E Quinn: Dating is like business.
Robert E Quinn: and it's a transactional room. And then when someone dumps you, you don't give them vulnerable feelings.
Robert E Quinn: you don't lose control to them. You can't give this to this guy.
Robert E Quinn: Now here's the stunning response, she said.
Robert E Quinn: What my roommates don't understand is that what he thinks doesn't matter now. 3 days before what he thought caused her life to shatter.
Robert E Quinn: Now she's saying what he thinks doesn't matter.
Robert E Quinn: She's clarified her purpose.
Robert E Quinn: She has a much greater sense of who she is.
Robert E Quinn: Her strength has skyrocketed and what he thinks doesn't matter, so I can tell him the truth.
Robert E Quinn: Now, that's truly stunning, and I want to emphasize outside the comprehension of her roommates who have a conventional mindset.
Robert E Quinn: the same mindset that each one of us learned when we were 2 years old that we've lived by all our lives.
Robert E Quinn: Purpose processed takes us outside a mindset we've always lived in.
Robert E Quinn: Now what I want to look at next very quickly is just some of the findings from research on what happens to people who have a purpose and strive to live by it.
Robert E Quinn: They live longer.
Robert E Quinn: they're less likely to have a heart attack or stroke, or Alzheimer's.
Robert E Quinn: They sleep better at night. They're more relaxed during the day.
Robert E Quinn: They're if they have an addiction, they're twice they have twice the chance of recovery. As people who
don't have purpose. They the purpose leads to strengthened immune system.
Robert E Quinn: Good cholesterol, better sex.
Robert E Quinn: more friends in the social network.
Robert E Quinn: more meaning engagement, life, satisfaction, happiness, making more money.
Robert E Quinn: Now this list comes from a literature review done by Vic Strecker and Vic when he hears it, says, if I told you that as I was an entrepreneur, and I was starting a company that had a pill that would produce these outcomes. Would you invest in my company?
Robert E Quinn: The answer is, Yes, I would.
Robert E Quinn: This is a stunning list. When I look at this list.
Robert E Quinn: There's a message that speaks to me every time, and it says you and I are designed to become purpose-driven organisms.
Robert E Quinn: We are going to experience optimal functioning much more frequently when we are living a purpose driven life. And this list is actually getting dated and more and more things pop. Pop! In all the time.
Robert E Quinn: The message is incredibly powerful at the personal level.
Robert E Quinn: Now, I've spent a great deal of my time on organizational purpose, both in terms of research and in
terms of practice, and have worked with lots of organizations on organizational purpose.
Robert E Quinn: The 1st thing I'd like to do is to make a differentiation between purpose and 3 other concepts. One is mission. That's the objective of the organization.
Robert E Quinn: example that cures from dte energy. We want to be the best Operated Energy Company.
Robert E Quinn: Well, you could measure whether or not you were doing that. That's what we do.
Robert E Quinn: I get lots of calls from lots of companies and usually it's too late. They've the CEO's been pressured to find a purpose. He's set up task force of middle
managers. They've worked for 3 months. They're going to announce it next week, and they want me to come. Give a
talk. I say, Okay, what's your purpose? 9 times out of 10 their purpose statement is their mission.
Robert E Quinn: their objective, what they already know they're doing. We write, we manufacture checks. We.
Robert E Quinn: It's their task.
Robert E Quinn: They can't get beyond that. When I tell them that's not a purpose.
Robert E Quinn: They go berserk because they're already committed.
Robert E Quinn: And they're unwilling to even think further about it.
Robert E Quinn: There's a strategy.
Robert E Quinn: When Eisner took over Disney. He held a press conference, and he uttered a brilliant sentence.
Robert E Quinn: He said.
Robert E Quinn: Hold me responsible for one thing, and one thing only and that is, we will double the number of films made each year. We will make 16 films next year.
Robert E Quinn: Now, within an hour every employee at Disney knew that sentence and that organization started to change immediately. That was a brilliant statement of strategy.
Robert E Quinn: Strategy is how we're going to do something.
Robert E Quinn: Vision is an action image.
Robert E Quinn: For example, at Microsoft they had the well-known vision of a laptop on every desk. That was a very powerful image.
Robert E Quinn: It didn't necessarily mean that they were going to have a laptop on every desk, but it was a guiding
image that could unify.
Robert E Quinn: All 3 of those notions are about the future in some form or fashion.
Robert E Quinn: Purpose is inherently different in my mind than those 3 things very similar, overlapping in a many, many ways. But purpose is not about. Contract contract is the central concept of the conventional mindset.
Robert E Quinn: We all live in a transactional world, and it's made up of contracts and of exchange, some formal, some
informal.
Robert E Quinn: A covenant is a very different animal than a contract.
Robert E Quinn: I put my sacred honour at stake. I'm giving you complete trust. You give me complete trust we're going
to take care of each other's welfare.
Robert E Quinn: An example is a company we worked with for quite a while. It was a food company and the higher purpose was we nurture growth in all that we do?
Robert E Quinn: That's a really interesting statement for a food company. It's it works, you know, we're making food
that nurtures growth.
Robert E Quinn: But this CEO was fairly unusual in that he understood higher purpose. Most of them don't and cannot
understand it.
Robert E Quinn: His direct reports did not understand it so well. We did 4 lengthy workshops with that group to get
them where they could understand what they were about.
Robert E Quinn: Now, one of the things we said to them in that workshop was.
Robert E Quinn: Okay.
Robert E Quinn: if we nurture growth and all that we do, that's not just making food, it's all that we do.
Robert E Quinn: So how are you going to fire people differently this year than you did last year?
Robert E Quinn: If you're nurturing growth and all you do, including the person you're firing. You can't fire them the
way you used to fire people.
Robert E Quinn: Now they were paralyzed by that thought.
Robert E Quinn: all of them, except the CEO.
Robert E Quinn: That happened just before the pandemic. The pandemic hit.
Robert E Quinn: We were interviewing some of their middle managers over zoom calls, and we had a very unusual
experience. I often say to the middle manager, Do you believe the CEO lives? This? And the answer is often negative.
Robert E Quinn: They said, absolutely Well, why do you believe that
Robert E Quinn: this is? Well, you know the pandemic hit. We've got these customers.
Robert E Quinn: We had all these complications of protecting people's lives. So the CEO hired private jets to fly the
engineers to the customers in the morning and fly them home at night.
Robert E Quinn: That's an astounding step.
Robert E Quinn: That's not an expectation. It's outside expectation.
Robert E Quinn: Higher purpose leads people to positive deviance. They deviate from the norm in positive directions.
Robert E Quinn: That's what a higher purpose does in 99% of the every fortune 500 has a purpose on the website. Not everyone, but most and most of them are Pr. Statements
Robert E Quinn: right? No one believes that they have any consequence and no one thinks about them having any consequence.
Robert E Quinn: In in the the book we wrote, we concluded, after we wrote the book, the single, most important word in that
book was the word authentic.
Robert E Quinn: It's an authentic higher purpose in that food company
Robert E Quinn: that CEO was completely authentic about the words nurture, growth, and all we do, and it influenced
him to do all kinds of strange innovations that made that purpose real in that company
Robert E Quinn: most. Ceos cannot conceive of doing such a thing. They cannot conceive of having a purpose. That's
the arbiter of every decision. It's unimaginable.
Robert E Quinn: But that's what an organization a higher purpose and organization does so very quickly. Let me hit on some of the key points that we make in the book that are counterintuitive. The 1st one is the moment you talk about getting a higher purpose, Ceos, think, okay, I'll point this task force. They'll
go to work on this, and we'll find our higher purpose, or we'll hire a Pr. Firm.
Robert E Quinn: We're going to invent it.
Robert E Quinn: You don't invent the higher purpose, you discover it. It already exists.
Robert E Quinn: It's in all your people.
Robert E Quinn: If you listen to those people, make it possible for them to talk and explore.
Robert E Quinn: You eventually find that purpose.
Robert E Quinn: We had a dean of a school that was doing very poorly
Robert E Quinn: the new Dean, Lee said. I can't be a dean. I've never even read a book about leadership and yet she had incredible instincts.
Robert E Quinn: The 1st thing she did is she interviewed every person in the school.
Robert E Quinn: She said. The interviews were so interesting. 90% of the interview was garbage when I asked them
about purpose but 10% was a jewel and I would go home and ponder those jewels. Interview after interview, and then put the jewels together, and by the end she had a 3 point purpose. She said, this is what our school is
about.
Robert E Quinn: A large number of professors immediately left.
Robert E Quinn: That sounds like a bad outcome.
Robert E Quinn: Professors all over the world were attracted to the school.
Robert E Quinn: Within a couple of years the school had radically transformed.
Robert E Quinn: It was operating to a purpose. The purpose had real consequences produced real systemic change.
Robert E Quinn: Purpose is not an aspirin.
Robert E Quinn: It's it's a tool that puts you into the world of very hard work.
Robert E Quinn: the second point is the one I made about authenticity.
Robert E Quinn: It's absolutely real.
Robert E Quinn: The reason you have to make. That point is that in our transactional theory of life we believe people are
self-interested, resources are scarce and conflict is natural. My job is to be very smart and to be more clever than you, and to win the resources we're competing for.
Robert E Quinn: And so I do whatever's convenient in that moment to win the game.
Robert E Quinn: The purpose is constant, it is not moving, it's not compromised. We nurture growth in all that we do.
Robert E Quinn: It never goes away.
Robert E Quinn: I no know a man at the Bank of America who was just incredibly proficient in the world of purpose and he's made the statement.
Robert E Quinn: Constancy is the one thing that always defeats culture if you have a purpose.
Robert E Quinn: and it's absolutely constant. And you talk about it every day, every meeting, every conversation.
Robert E Quinn: Eventually that system will change.
Robert E Quinn: Most systems don't change around these things.
Robert E Quinn: And probably the biggest empirical study we have on purpose showing positive outcomes. One of the conclusions was, if you don't enroll middle
management it will not work
Robert E Quinn: now with that group of people that in the Food Company we did those 4 long workshops we taught
them and taught them.
Robert E Quinn: They finally got it. They started putting it in place, and the 1st thing they said to us was
Robert E Quinn: will send out an email to middle management.
Robert E Quinn: We said, Did you not hear a word we've said?
Robert E Quinn: If you send out an email to middle management, you are wasting every dollar you've invested so far because this is not going to work.
Robert E Quinn: You're going to have to do something you're not used to doing instead of managing. You're going to
have to lead.
Robert E Quinn: You're going to have to go to middle management and convert them.
Robert E Quinn: Make them believe that this purpose is real.
Robert E Quinn: You're going to have to enroll them and change them.
Robert E Quinn: and when they do, then you have a chance of having this purpose make a difference.
Robert E Quinn: the 3rd level that many companies never get to. A few of them do, and a few of them do it brilliantly is
to get all the way to the bottom of the system, where virtually everybody in the system knows the purpose.
Robert E Quinn: believes it's authentic.
Robert E Quinn: sees it as constant, and their lives begin to organize around that purpose.
Robert E Quinn: Those are a few of the things to consider the
Robert E Quinn: or can be provocative, so that I imagine we deal with a number of questions. But let me stop there, and
we can return to whatever you'd like to talk about afterwards.
Rosemary Sainty: Okay, so Suzy, over to you to introduce our next speaker.
Suzy Green: Thanks so much, Rosemary, and thanks so much, Bob. I could listen to you all day. So I'd like to introduce
Professor Carl Rhodes, and very excited to be speaking with Carl today. Carl is the Dean of the UTS School at,
and he's also responsible, not just for the academic but strategic leadership of the school, and in its commitment to be a
socially committed business school, which I think today is very much about prior to his academic career. Carl also worked in professional and senior management positions in
change management and organisational development.
Suzy Green: So, Carl, can you tell us a little bit about your journey to leading a socially committed business school.
Suzy Green: Oh, you're on mute.
Carl Rhodes: Sort of never used zoom before, Susie. But thanks for that very warm introduction. Hello, everybody, and
and thank you for using a very old and somewhat flattering photograph of me in that opening slide as well. You know.
To be frank, for most of my academic career I had no interest whatsoever in any form of academic leadership or administration. I had 0 career interests
in that sort of thing, you know. If we were talking 20 years ago and you told me that today that I would be dean of a business school, I would have laughed out loud at the
absurdity of what you're proposing, and and suggested that you seek psychological help for your delusions because I had no interest in it, you know. I was quite happy pursuing the career as a professor. My, my
purpose, if we frame it in in the words you're using today was very much about being a teacher about being intellectual
about being a writer, and those are the things that I valued and pursued from a very, very young age. And continue to to
do so.
Carl Rhodes: It was about 10 years ago that I started to change a little bit and broaden my horizons. It was just around
the time that I took my the role of head of the Department of Management here at UTS.
Carl Rhodes: and I think I don't know if it's just getting older.
Carl Rhodes: At the time, or but really started to turn my attention away just from from these more academic, scholarly,
and intellectual pursuits is, I started caring more about what is the overall value of the institution of the University, an
institution that I'd always valued and always identified with, and and always wanted to be a part of, you know, no matter
how flawed universities are.
Carl Rhodes: and they're very flawed. I'd been in my own work as well as just in my own life I'd been very critical of
universities, particularly business schools. I know business schools have pretty much gone astray, you know, and kind of squandered the inheritance of the university that had been given to
them by becoming overly focused on ranking rankings and ratings and just competitive nature.
Carl Rhodes: really obsessed to the point of distraction with elite publications rather than engaging with real problems.
Carl Rhodes: you know, had brought in a world view of competitiveness with other institutions. And it's all about
beating other people, and this, that, and the other, you know, an enchantment, if not obsession, with managerialism, and
again an implied purpose. Through all of this, that business schools were around to serve commercial and private interests rather than more broadly serving society. And so, really, you know, an
elitism in terms of institutional hierarchy. Also an elitism. Many univers business rules to this day pride themselves on
judging how good they are by by the salaries that their graduates earn so really a kind of very set of values that run very contrary to mine. And I had been critical. I think I got to a point where I thought to myself.
Carl Rhodes: Can I in some way contribute to business schools being different to that? You know I didn't position. I
never thought of myself as a hero, but more as far as as part of a movement that might be looking to do something
different, to pursue a different kind of business school.
Carl Rhodes: and I here at UTS. I became deputy Dean in in 2018 and then Dean in in 2021, and so over that period of of 6 years. We developed a new strategy. And you
you see, you pointed to it as you introduced of being a socially committed business school. That's very much in contrary
to being an economically focused business school or a corporate focused business school. But it's a socially committed
school and a focus on developing and sharing knowledge the heart of the University. But to do that for for a
prosperous economy, for sustainability, and for innovation in a fairer world. And so all of that, in in a sense under
underlined a purpose of is it possible for business, education, and research to create a more just world.
Carl Rhodes: not not to create more theories of justice, although they're important and necessary, but to create a more
just world in in very material and practical practical ways that that improve people's life lives and that over this period that I've been doing this job is the purpose that I've dedicated myself to a purpose very much rooted in values of justice, democracy,
and shared prosperity. And how can we can we can we kind of encapsulate those values to create knowledge for the
world, but also to educate a future generation of responsible leaders.
Suzy Green: And a lot of younger people are looking for meaning and purpose. And I just wanted to quote quickly a
couple of stats that Professor Andy Hoffman, who, I believe, is a colleague of yours. Bob's originally from the Center
for POS orgs at Ross School of business, now at Stanford, and in one of his Youtube, he quoted nineties, this is Gallup.
2,019 97% of young business professionals want a career with purpose. Business ethics entered the top 5 most popular subjects for the 1st time. This is in financial times,
67% of business students want to incorporate environmental sustainability considerations. That's from Yale. So is that
aligning to your experience, Carlyn, what students are actually looking for these days.
Carl Rhodes: Yes, absolutely. And I think this is true in a global sense. And I think the strategy that we've adopted here is very much in response to that both in response to to the changing aspects of what students are looking
for and changing, of what what businesses are looking for
Carl Rhodes: I don't think we could have successfully taken on such a purpose and strategy 10 years ago, maybe not
even 5 years ago. Because it, you know, you still have to teach in a way that appeals to to students what want to to come
and get this? And similarly, I don't think I could have done this job 5 or 10 years ago, because my values don't change
over time. I think of myself in this kind of era of the students you're talking about like, imagine if you wear the same type of clothing your entire life.
Carl Rhodes: there are going to be 2 periods of history where you're in fashion.
Carl Rhodes: right? And so this is the period for me, as far as these kind of broader values. But hopefully it will be
much longer than a fashion. And these kind of changes that we see in young people, which fill me with a great sense of
hope for the future at a time where often hope is had to hard to locate in the world. But but when I see young people caring more, much more engaged socially,
much more engaged politically and and caring in a different way about the future. That's not just about themselves and
the kind of me generations that that had grown up my own included in the seventies and eighties. There is a great deal of
hope, and and if we, as a business school, can foster that hope and help it grow and develop it.
Carl Rhodes: And to provide it some structure and direction. Then I think we've done something worthwhile.
Suzy Green: Absolutely, Carl. And we we all understand how challenging it has been in the higher education sector in
the past 4 or so years. How has purpose helped you? Or perhaps the unit, or the or the university more widely? Do do
you see some connections there in, in, I guess, in terms of some of the earlier research I presented about it, giving you
that motivation to to persist despite the challenges.
Carl Rhodes: I I would say, you know, I think this is the case both personally and in terms of work related things. I
mean a a sense of purpose. If you really believe it, I mean, if you keep changing your sense of purpose every 3
months, then you know, you gotta ask yourself, you know, is that really meaningful to you? But a true sense of purpose,
I think, is absolutely essential in navigating tough times. Otherwise you'll just get blown around in the wind, responding
to the needs of the of the moment.
Carl Rhodes: And effectively, not really achieving anything. But we've had massive changes, particularly, I mean
around the world in some particular, to Australia. Covid is the obvious one which changed everything.
Carl Rhodes: For us for that period, and changes subsequent, you know changing student expectations.
Carl Rhodes: For universities like ours, which which educate international students as well as
Carl Rhodes: Australian students. That whole thing has been very unpredictable. We've got changes in the wind around
government policy. In higher education which has created greater uncertainty. We've got revenue challenges, funding
challenges. If anything I would say for Australian business schools. This last period, this last period since about 2020,
has been the most challenging period we've had
Carl Rhodes: for decades. And sometimes I quip, you know that this is I picked the worst time in the entire history of
Australian higher education to become the Dean, but, on the other hand, I I mean. I'm joking. They're actually, on the
other hand, I think I've picked the best time, because it's only.
Carl Rhodes: you know, running with a tailwind, you know, that doesn't require as much effort. That isn't isn't where
character shines through. I don't think you can distinguish entirely between the idea of character and the idea of purpose.
And and how can we bring
Carl Rhodes: purpose to drive a strength of character that can see through the hard times and and and and the good
times? So, you know, without purpose. It's like sailing on a on a rough sea, with no, with no rudder so absolutely
essential, Susie.
Suzy Green: Absolutely. And Professor Todd Cashin, I'm not sure if he's still with us, but he refers to in his latest
chapter to purpose and purpose in life as untapped, potential. And I think, for our young, particularly our young
students, coming through. And
Suzy Green: we know from some of the work that's been done in the field of positive education which I've been quite
involved in in primary and secondary high school, that generally there are lower levels of meaning that than pleasure, if
you like. If we're taking assessments of positive emotion versus meaning, there's lower levels of meaning. And hence
we know there's a significant mental ill health issue. So I I think there's
Suzy Green: bit of a double or a triple whammy here. Carly's in there, too, in terms of encouraging students to see the
connection, to the content, the curriculum, and then to their own sense of purpose and meaning, and the flow on well
being effects that that will have for them and their families and community.
Carl Rhodes: Indeed, and that we incorporate that kind of thinking very much into our education here. That that we do,
Rosemary, been a really key part of that as as well.
Carl Rhodes: And and I think I think what we need to bear in mind as university leaders, and I think what people forget
too much when it comes to undergraduates, especially people who join us just after or soon after leaving school. And so
we've got young people who are part of the university getting an education, who will come here at age 17 or 18,
Carl Rhodes: and leave in their early twenties. That is a crucial period of life, you know, that is a period of becoming an
adult, of leading, leaving adolescence and childhood behind and becoming an adult who goes out to function in the
world.
Carl Rhodes: Now, on the one hand, you might think of a business school as having the responsibility of teaching
people a bunch of business school skills so that they know how to do a marketing plan, and to read a balance sheet, and
to, you know, and to to understand management, and and all those kind of things, and those things are absolutely
Carl Rhodes: But I think what's much more important is that
Carl Rhodes: these young people grow up with us, you know they grow up to some extentunder our guidance.
Carl Rhodes: and that if you think of education in that way, that is an awesome responsibility to have to take, you know,
and one that we have to take seriously. And if we just reduce, as some people do, education, to be providing people with
a bag of skills so that they can go out and maximize their income generation potential in a competitive labor market.
Carl Rhodes: We've miserably failed those young people. So that's very strongly. That's kind of also part of what we're
trying to do with the approach here at Uts business school.
Suzy Green: Thank you, Carl. That is music to my ears, and I'm sure everybody else on the call today. Thank you so
much for the wonderful work that you're doing there.
Suzy Green: So I will move because I know Rosemary is watching the clock today. I'm going to move to to Corinne,
Corinne, Strauss, Corinne, Strauss is a cause, related CEO. And currently she's leading the Australian disability
network. Since 2021 sh! I've known Corinne for a number of years as a a friend and a colleague, and I know that she
absolutely walks the talk. She's passionate about improving the lives
Suzy Green: of others and building communities for good. She has led the transformation of a number of organisations,
including being the CEO of the special Olympics, also the 1st female CEO appointed to the Nrl. The National Rugby
League's Men of League Foundation, and also prior to that legacy, Australia, and she's currently or just recently been
appointed to the Board of directors for Invictus, Australia.
Suzy Green: So Corinne, welcome. And I'm very, very keen in our very brief amount of time today. For you to share
with with everyone, I guess. 1, st 1st and foremost, your journey, because I know it's been a. It's been a long one. And
it's been an interesting one, but I'd love to for you to highlight, where where purpose has had an interplay or a
connection in the the decisions that you've made in your life. Trajectory.
Corene Strauss: Thanks, Susie, and and hello to everybody on the call, and some of whom I know and thank you for the
opportunity to join you? So I my career has been an amazing career, and I have really had the best life, even in
challenging times. And I think really fundamental to that has been the way all my purpose in life.
Corene Strauss: and to Carl's point about purpose and not changing it. I don't think I've ever deviated from what drives
me, and that is that I have always set out to lead a meaningful life.
Corene Strauss: And to positively impact those around me. And the community in which I live.
Corene Strauss: and for me unity matters. And so, whatever I've done, I have always sought to provide some meaningful
impact in what I do, who I work for, who I work with.
Corene Strauss: and and those around me. So so my career has always been in the not for profit space since I was about
14 years old I started to a youth movement in our community to help fundraise for those in need.
Corene Strauss: And that movement continued on for years and years later, and I have always been in the not for profit,
space, and mindset. I loved what Carl said about the business school. I am from the business school background myself.
I was the associate director of the Australian Graduate School of Management years ago. And again, another reason
why I was in the education sector at University of New South Wales is because I really believe
Corene Strauss: in improving the lives of others right? And so education is a really important tool for all of us to have to
learn to be better in what we do in school skills and resources, and so good on you, Carl for doing what you're doing at
Uts. I love the love, the purpose, and I really hope that it goes from strength to strength. So yeah, that's a little bit about
me. I'm quite happy to sit on the couch and answer questions.
Suzy Green: So, Corene. Currently, in your role as CEO at the Australian network network for disability, I'm aware that
there's a very compelling, purposeful story by the founder as well, and I know we don't have a lot of time today, but I
was really fortunate to sit in and hear the power of that story on the people. I'm wondering if you could just speak to that
briefly, and how that continues to to impact people.
Corene Strauss: Yeah. So in a nutshell it was founded by John and Steve Bennett, and their father was disfigured in the
war, and he could never get a job. And so they settled here in Australia, and they had a business called Ben Bro.
Electronics. And they started to hire people with disability, and they found that you know, they would have to make a
hundred phone calls to find one person, and that that was not optimal. And so what they did is they formed
Corene Strauss: a group of people to try and create impact by
Corene Strauss: educating and informing and building the disability confidence of employers and doing multiple
Corene Strauss: processes and procedures so that people with disability could be feel could apply and be welcome and
included in the organization. That's the firehose version. If anyone is interested in knowing more and seeing Steve's
story I can send you a video link of it. I've just seen a video interview of him, so amazing human being!
Suzy Green: Thank you, Corinne, and how do you personally stay connected to your purpose? Particularly with the
challenges of running, I guess a not for profit and the current financial challenges that we're experiencing.
Suzy Green: How do you? How does that help you on a day-to-day basis?
Corene Strauss: All I can say is, thank God, I have purpose, and I understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, because it
really helps me. Stay focused on really dark days, and let me tell you that it is running a not for profit and certain not for
profits
Corene Strauss: when it's really difficult.
Corene Strauss: I say, cut your whinging and lead. And remember why you're doing this. Remember why you're doing
it, because somewhere, some somewhere out there will
Corene Strauss: be in the same space as me, and will understand why I'm doing, and I'll find the support I need to do.
And the same thing with this with the team that I have. So I have a team, and as long as my team understand what our
purpose is, so here at Australian disability network, the most amazing organization I have ever worked for. I love it. I
love it. I absolutely love it.
Corene Strauss: But our purpose is to build the disability, confidence of Australians and people around the world, and every
day, when there may be a little challenge, we remind ourselves that if we can build the confidence of one more
Australian to welcome, include a person with disability in the workplace and as a customer, then we've nailed it. It's 1
more person, and that is our purpose. That's my lighthouse.
Suzy Green: And Corinne, you do see, or I do. I personally heard, throughout my profession, a fair bit of cynicism
about, you know, purpose, statements or vision statements, or even values on the wall, that people walk past every day
and are completely habituated to, or, you know, not connected to do. You have any tips for people listening today, and
how to continually keep that alive for people like? Is it woven into
Suzy Green: the operating rhythms of the organization in terms of team meetings or regular professional development.
Suzy Green: Any tips that you might have.
Corene Strauss: And so I've had a long career. I'm on the other side of the the equation, and I have finally learned
Corene Strauss: how to do it, and I would say we speak about it every day, so I always talk about our lighthouse, which
is our purpose, and I describe everything we do is, is this thing? Is this building our lighthouse brighter?
Corene Strauss: And is it making it bigger? And that is our purpose, which is to build the disability conference. So
whatever we do today, guys, is it building our lighthouse? Is it making it shine bright? So we all understand what we
need to do? And we all have what I'm a great believer in autonomy, and so, if everybody understands the purpose, and
they have the autonomy to do what they need to do.
Corene Strauss: we thrive, and we really lean in as a team. It's amazing purpose, as your lighthouse is what makes you
stand strong every day.
Suzy Green: Quinn, just remind me what's head count at your organization. How many people.
Corene Strauss: We are currently 56. When I started 3 and a bit years ago, we were 21. So we've grown a lot.
Suzy Green: Yes, and I'm assuming well, I I probably know more than an assumption that it is
Suzy Green: seemingly easier when you've got a smaller organization. I know you've worked at larger organizations.
And Bob made a really important point in terms of the middle managers. I've seen that Bob happen before where it's an
email out rather than a a real connection with people. And of course it can be much more challenging the larger the
organization and perhaps Bob might be able to share an example when we get to the QA. Because I listen to a
Suzy Green: podcast yesterday, Bob, about, I think it might have been Kpmg, one of the Big 4. As to how they got
purpose out across I don't know thousands and thousands of people but, Corinne, any final tips before we.
Corene Strauss: Yes.
Corene Strauss: Bob nailed it, and I wanted to speak on that, or mention this topic. He talked about his organizational
purpose, he talked about, discover authentic, constant. And then he talked about enroll management, and he said, Enroll
workforce.
Corene Strauss: Can I say one of the biggest lessons I've learned in my entire career. And I've learned it through the
disability sector. And it's the thing called co-design. Whatever you do, we co design everything in our organization. And
that is how you understand what it is that you need to achieve. And so that's for me. Another great lesson about codesign.
Suzy Green: Yes, thank you. And it also co-design aligns to the complementary field to pos and post psych of
appreciative inquiry. And we've recently I'm very honored to privileged to say, we've been working with diabetes,
Australia. We've just started a an month program with them. We started off with appreciative inquiry summits, and it's
been a fantastic way to engage people and to hear their voice. And to get that that shared mission.
Suzy Green: But between, not just from the top, but between everybody.
Suzy Green: So thank you so much, Corinne, again, for the incredible work that you do. You're you're an inspiration and
thanks for joining us today.
Corene Strauss: Thanks for asking me my pleasure.
Suzy Green: So, Rosemary, I'm handing over to you now. I believe.
Rosemary Sainty: Thank you, Suzy, and and thank you, Bob.
Rosemary Sainty: Carl and Corinne, for your your comments and thoughts. So I'm just moving to the part of the
morning, where we have a bit of a panel discussion and and leaving enough time for our Q&A session.
Rosemary Sainty: Listening to everyone.
Rosemary Sainty: I I put up on the the chat. I've made this up purpose washing since we hear about greenwashing, etc.
And not wanting to be cynical, because, as I was reading recently. It's cynicism that is associated with burnout and
cynicism comes from inauthentic
Rosemary Sainty: vision statements, values, purpose. And yet, Bob.
Rosemary Sainty: I have heard you you talk about or write about? The
Rosemary Sainty: the assumption, a dominant assumption that people act out of self interest. Our board structures in in
corporate governance are built on that the Board is there to control the CEO, who otherwise will just act out of self
interest, and and that kind of permeates through the organisation that ultimately we all act out of self interest. Yet here
we are talking about purpose
Rosemary Sainty: and and that sometimes. I think I've read. Ceos will think? Well, okay, that's it. We've got our purpose
statement that's done on with the next thing. And so kind of lack of depth, lack of reflection. So I'm I'm front loading
this as a question. To for for everyone that's on the call. And they're thinking about how to build purpose into their
organization. You know anything from a small, not for profit to something larger. You know how how to bring that up
with their management.
Rosemary Sainty: so so yeah, I I guess a a question around.
Rosemary Sainty: your your collective experiences of how to
Rosemary Sainty: embed purpose in an organisation. What advice would you give to the the many listeners on the call,
and and thinking here, especially to that point of authenticity. So, Bob, 1st to you.
Rosemary Sainty: oh, you'll need to unmute.
Rosemary Sainty: Yeah.
Robert E Quinn: Quick! 3 quick responses. One is
Robert E Quinn: when we founded the Positive organization scholarship in 2,000, Kim Cameron and I started to circle
the Globe
Robert E Quinn: teaching week long sessions for executives all over the world.
Robert E Quinn: For 4 days they would drink it in. They loved the research they loved the findings on Friday, I'd say,
Okay, what are you going to go home and do differently?
Robert E Quinn: They didn't do this.
Robert E Quinn: They did this.
Robert E Quinn: that is, they were terrified by the question.
Robert E Quinn: It took me 3 years to figure out why this response was so constant.
Robert E Quinn: and the short version is.
Robert E Quinn: if you accept any of the principles that come out of the science of positive organizing or positive
psychology.
Robert E Quinn: You're engaging in some form of positive deviance. So if you say, Okay, we're going to have gratitude,
circles or practice appreciative inquiry.
Robert E Quinn: You've instantaneously introduced something outside of the economic hierarchical mindset and you will be neutralized
Robert E Quinn: whenever you deviate from the norm negatively or positively.
Robert E Quinn: you are pushed back to the norm by negative peer pressure.
Robert E Quinn: Your subordinates control you.
Robert E Quinn: We got a great Dean sitting here.
Robert E Quinn: but he has to deal with faculty members
Robert E Quinn: who are trying to influence him and control him all the time. That's the nature of the beast. Right?
Robert E Quinn: People are terrified of being laughed at, of being neutralized.
Robert E Quinn: If you don't have a purpose that's driving you, you're not going to deviate from the norm. So you're going to be mediocre and we never do a session that someone doesn't walk up to me at the end and say, Oh, this all sounds so
good!
Robert E Quinn: You just don't know my company. You see, we're a fill in the blank company.
Robert E Quinn: We can't do this, or you don't know, my boss. My boss is a monster.
Robert E Quinn: It can't be done here.
Robert E Quinn: That is the vast army of mankind, or legions of mankind, live and learn helplessness, which, by the way, was the root
of positive psychology.
Robert E Quinn: And there's a shift that's necessary where you care enough that you take a risk to do good.
Robert E Quinn: That's a conversion. That's a change from the reactive life that comes with the a basic economic paradigm of self-interested people which is accurate. By the way, most of the time most of us are acting in self-interest, competing for
resources, etc.
Robert E Quinn: The second real quick response is in one of the companies we worked with that transformed dramatically.
Robert E Quinn: They had a board member. The board member was General Joe Roby retired. Who was the CEO of
U.S.A. Insurance, a really respected company for a very long time and this CEO went out to visit U.S.A. Insurance, and he went to their call centers.
Robert E Quinn: He came out of the call centers and said, Joe, what's going on?
Robert E Quinn: I have call centers, but they don't look like this. Your people smile.
Robert E Quinn: your people are unified. Your people are treating the customer with incredible delicacy. That's not my
call centers what's going on here? And then Roby said a sentence that I think, is profoundly important, that 99% of the people I tell it to just shrug their shoulders.
Robert E Quinn: They see no value in the sentence I'm about to utter.
Robert E Quinn: What Roby said was the highest purpose of a leader is to continually clarify the purpose.
Robert E Quinn: That's profoundly important because people live in organizations where self-interest will naturally occur at every turn.
Robert E Quinn: And so, if I'm a business, if I'm in the business school and I'm on the staff Hr. Staff, or the accounting staff, or where some staff function every day. I'm solving problems, and self-interest is operating constantly.
Robert E Quinn: I may be very committed to Carl's purpose of vision or Corrine's purpose of vision but the forces of life are pushing me away from it at every turn.
Robert E Quinn: So when Roby says, the highest purpose of a leader is to continually clarify the purpose.
Robert E Quinn: he means right. That's the constancy effect. When you meet someone like Corene.
Robert E Quinn: You people are half a planet away from me. I can smell Corene right. She smells different.
Robert E Quinn: She instantly steps off the screen at me. I know her. I've seen her a thousand times. She's absolutely
rare.
Robert E Quinn: She does not occur with frequency but there's a lot of her and they occur in all kinds of places, and they all talk funny, just like she just talked funny using strange language and doing these strange things.
Robert E Quinn: Purpose-driven leaders do.
Robert E Quinn: So I'll just stop. There's a couple of other things. But yeah, those are things that jump out at me.
Rosemary Sainty: Great comments. Thank you. I see someone to put something about the PWC tax scandal. We've got
happening here in Australia at the moment, and which is a reminder that large and complex organisations mean there's an even larger and more
complex task for that leader to keep.
Rosemary Sainty: Yeah. Revisiting continually the purpose. Carl or Corinne, would you like to respond to what Bob has
just been talking about?
Carl Rhodes: I wouldn't mind responding a little bit to Pwc comment as as well. Actually, because it's very interesting
one, particularly in in relation to what was just talked about self interest. And clearly this scandal for those who don't
know involve Pwc.
Carl Rhodes: working for the Australian Government to provide advice on, on on how to curb corporate tax avoidance
only, then to sell the information or and to attempt to sell the information about their plans to the corporations who are
doing the tax avoidance. So it was a ethically void, and it was a big scandal, and continues to to be a big scandal
Carl Rhodes: in this country based on, in this case, the pursuit of self-interest. There's so much talked about self interest.
Carl Rhodes: There is almost as if you know, people have become more self interested because we've been told we have
to be homo economicus, and therefore we become. But people naturally care about other people too. I think, when it
comes to business.
Carl Rhodes: corporate purpose is important, but it is possible, I think, as you intimated before, Rosemary, to have some
kind of purpose washing, and the worst thing
Carl Rhodes: about purpose washing is when leaders of corporations fool themselves into believing their own false
sense of purpose. Should that be the case, and fool themselves into believing that they can, you know, follow some
fairly Utopian purpose that sounds like it was written by the same people who write those inserts in the middle of
hallmark, greeting cards for Mother's Day, or or whatever the case, very kind of tweet.
Carl Rhodes: because it's important also not to forget that if we look at business organizations in particular, they exist
only by the grace of society. Business organizations are created through legal structures that create
Carl Rhodes: and and regulate and enable business trade and markets to exist without society. You have no business.
Carl Rhodes: and I think we've too much kind of flipped the the the direction, and assumed that society is there to serve
business rather than business, being there to serve society, and any purpose of any meaning can only come to that and
not to forget. There are some fairly basic ways. Such a broad purpose can be achieved, and they often get overlooked, I
think, in discussions of purpose.
Carl Rhodes: because the the main ways that businesses can serve society are a by paying taxes, which many of them
Carl Rhodes: go to great lengths to avoid doing.
Carl Rhodes: secondly, by offering meaningful, secure, and fairly and well paid employment. Again, we get the
precariat and and the kind of growth of of you know, uber style working arrangements.
Carl Rhodes: Thirdly, we care. It's about creating innovation that leads to economic growth and the possibility of shared
prosperity. And in face of that we often get profiteering and monopolistic, selfish practices. And, fourthly, it's about
providing goods and services that are a true value, where, instead, we often get rentier capitalism and kind of abuse of
financialization. So I think there's an absolutely basic
Carl Rhodes: sense of there's also a common purpose, perhaps, that that business can have. And often that gets lost. And
I think it's important to to keep that alive. As part of this discussion, as well.
Rosemary Sainty: Great thanks, Carl Karim. Would you like to make any comments? And then we'll move on to the
QA.
Corene Strauss: No, no, let's go to the Q. And a. I'm sure the participants would want to.
Corene Strauss: I have some questions answered, so over to you.
Rosemary Sainty: All right. So there's a few things happening in the chat, Suzy, would you like to pull out a question
from the QA.
Suzy Green: Yeah, I think the 1st question by Satomi was when the term positive organization, where did it come from?
And I think, Bob, I think we perhaps we have recognized that you were one of the co-founders along with Jane Dutton,
who we've had previously, and Kim Cameron, who we've also had previously. But I guess, more interestingly for me,
the question is, how commonly is this term being used now? Here in Australia, I mean in every
Suzy Green: presentation I give. I'm certainly quoting the research body along with other sciences. But yeah, what
would you? What would your response to that be?
Robert E Quinn: The term took off fairly quickly in the academic world in the sense that
Robert E Quinn: it's pretty well recognized that there's a body of literature called positive organization scholarship. Just
as there is positive psychology.
Robert E Quinn: it doesn't play well with practitioners. They don't know what to make of it. So it often get even we.
Robert E Quinn: You know we do sessions on positive leadership, because it's a little more understandable, or we'll
we'll change that name. And so you're always trying to communicate with the general market, but
as an academic endeavor it was definitely seen as a subfield that had a particular message. And yeah, that's it.
Suzy Green: Certainly attest to.
Suzy Green: you know, going to the website, Bob, because many moons ago, when I 1st went there, it was in the early
days quite academically focused as the leap as the research started to grow. But in recent years it there's so many
wonderful case studies and very practical applications that are highlighted. So I'd encourage everyone to go to the center
for positive organizations website.
Robert E Quinn: Yeah, I.
Suzy Green: Sorry, Bob, you gone.
Robert E Quinn: Go ahead, please.
Suzy Green: I know I was just going to pull on. Pull out another question. But please feel free to comment.
Suzy Green: Oh, good.
Robert E Quinn: Yeah, we're all good.
Suzy Green: Rosemary, I'm not sure if there's any that are standing out to you. There was one question around thoughts
on organisations, expending resources to maintain a social license to operate? I'm not sure if I entirely understand that
question. But Rosemary or the panel, do you have any thoughts on that.
Rosemary Sainty: well, anonymous attendee.
Rosemary Sainty: I wonder if this is alluding to the kind of tensions? And yeah, between
Rosemary Sainty: meeting the needs of multiple stakeholders. So so there's your your shareholders. Let's say it's a
corporation and making profits versus the social or your broader, broader
Rosemary Sainty: stakeholders. And and inevitably there is tensions and and trade offs in in meeting. All of those
different needs and decisions have to be made. And usually they're around resources. So I'm assuming that that's what
this is about. And I guess what I'm getting from the conversation is that this is an is an ongoing thing. So, as Bob has
said, the importance of the leader to continually clarify the purpose, and presumably that means that
Rosemary Sainty: organizational purposes also need to shift
Rosemary Sainty: a debt.
Rosemary Sainty: Would you agree with that, Bob? Because there, there are those tensions like for for us in the higher
education sector in Australia, we're about to go through another kind of well, it seems to be on the horizon another kind
of series of pressures, with loss of income from less international students, for instance. Yet
Rosemary Sainty: universities all have different sorts of public purposes, limited enough, limited resources, and and
sometimes tough decisions have to be made.
Rosemary Sainty: Do does the purpose, then, need to adapt.
Rosemary Sainty: What? What do you think.
Robert E Quinn: Well, I think 1st of all, there's an underlying process.
Robert E Quinn: We live in the highest age. The highest rate of uncertainty than a human system has ever lived in
before.
Robert E Quinn: The political conditions around the world attest to that.
Robert E Quinn: When things become totally uncertain, we have certain predictable political shifts that we're seeing all over the world. And that's a function of fear.
Robert E Quinn: When we don't feel that we control our environment and we feel threatened.
Robert E Quinn: As you know, we look at the teenagers across the world today.
Robert E Quinn: The statistics are just terrifying of how out of control they feel that, like their life is right. Adults
Robert E Quinn: all the same.
Robert E Quinn: What does purpose do in an individual or a company?
Robert E Quinn: Purpose gives you the capacity to step into uncertainty with the intention of learning how to adapt
Robert E Quinn: That's what purpose does for you. So it allows your system to be an adaptive innovative system. When I listened to Carl describe the business school.
Robert E Quinn: That's not the descriptions I heard 10 years ago of any business schools he's adapting, you know. He's
stepping in uncertainty. He's learning. He's changing, and the system is changing
Robert E Quinn: purpose does that. And purpose is always about, I said. Source several of the comments on the chat about what asking some basic questions.
Robert E Quinn: We have a lot of research on the difference between ego goals and contribution goals.
Robert E Quinn: I have a lot of ego goals and so does everybody else on this call?
Robert E Quinn: I spend a lot of time in self-interest.
Robert E Quinn: I also sometimes transcend self interest, and when I do, I start talking like Corinne. Oh, my life is great,
right? She has a great life because she's been marching to a different drummer.
Robert E Quinn: Sometimes I succeed in doing that.
Robert E Quinn: A lot of times I fail and I go to the default option, which is ego.
Robert E Quinn: But that research
Robert E Quinn: basically has a set of dependent variables. It looks just like the list I showed about purpose in terms of
all the positive outcomes. Right?
Robert E Quinn: as we move from self-interest, competition, preservation of resources, conservation, resources to
creation of resources, contribution of resources.
Robert E Quinn: We live differently, individually.
Robert E Quinn: and we live differently, collectively.
Robert E Quinn: We go into.
Robert E Quinn: Oh, Corene used that wonderful word Unity, or or maybe it was Susie.
Robert E Quinn: Always it's about unity.
Robert E Quinn: The the some person transforms, they begin to see the collective good, they articulate the collective
good which is the purpose.
Robert E Quinn: and it creates trust, it creates covenant. It creates a different kind of conversation. Learning peaks in
that organization that organization has capacity. Other organizations don't have.
Robert E Quinn: And so you violate economic assumptions. And you make more money
because you have capacities arising and emerging. That's key word emerging that the other companies don't have.
Robert E Quinn: And yet economic reasoning just cannot deal with it. Right?
Robert E Quinn: So you're basically increasing consciousness operating from a different drummer and getting different
results.
Rosemary Sainty: Hmm!
Rosemary Sainty: Excellent!
Suzy Green: That question by Carolyn. How important is identity to organizational purpose. She says it's not talked
about nearly enough, but having clarity on your unique organisational identity seems to me to be key to connecting to
the purpose. For me, having done a significant amount of work on individual levels of meaning and purpose.
Suzy Green: We often start with values, helping people reflect and crystallize and then prioritize their values. And then
we move to the vision. Bob, like the you know all the purpose. But from the way that we've come at it, how well I've
come at it largely has been around values clarification 1st in terms of who am I?
Suzy Green: And then you know what and what is the best use of my strengths? What is the purpose, then, of the the
strengths of the values that I have and the strengths that I have. How would that align, I guess, in in terms of this
question, here, in organizational identity and organizational purpose.
Robert E Quinn: Well, I think that the thing that's hardest to process about purpose
is that it's a moral endeavor and that immediately terrifies people but when Carl talks about these student needs and what he's trying to do, and he says we're trying to
grow these people.
Robert E Quinn: That's a parental function, right.
Robert E Quinn: That's a family function.
Robert E Quinn: And growing them is not about putting information about marketing into their head. Now, that's intellectual growth.
Robert E Quinn: But they need physical growth. They need social growth, they need spiritual growth.
Robert E Quinn: And we now have a science of spirituality.
Suzy Green: Yeah.
Robert E Quinn: Right. Spirituality is real, we measure it and we know lots about it.
Robert E Quinn: We ought to be able to grow Carl students on all 4 of those dimensions, and if we're not, they're not
growing.
Robert E Quinn: And so purpose brings that moral dimension to the organization. People can feel honored, honorable about what they're
doing. They have a reason to get up and get out of bed in the morning.
Robert E Quinn: They also become empowered. Just a quick illustration.
Robert E Quinn: I was at a company in Ohio.
Robert E Quinn: This mid level woman was speaking, she said, this morning my boss said, we're going to do X. And I
Robert E Quinn: now. Every head snapped and looked at her.
Robert E Quinn: and she said, I said to him, That's not consistent with our company's purpose.
Robert E Quinn: And the boss said, Oh, thank you very much.
Robert E Quinn: That's so helpful.
Robert E Quinn: At that moment the CEO leaned in. He was sitting next to me, he said, do you see what I mean
Robert E Quinn: when purpose is the arbiter of every decision. Every person's empowered.
Robert E Quinn: every person can make decisions about what to do.
Robert E Quinn: Well, most people cannot comprehend that right that's outside
the self-interested, hierarchical, conventional mindset.
Robert E Quinn: You have to learn your way into that. Koran
started at 14,but she's had a series of experiences where she's constantly had expansion of consciousness
and she understands it more and more deeply. The reason, I say she smells differently. I can see it. I
can hear that model.
Robert E Quinn: She understands it. She's speaking about it different pieces. People can't talk like her.
Suzy Green: Thanks, Bob. Again. I'm I'm said I'm very much still on a learning journey. But someone had made
reference to the parallels between individual adult development and organizational I guess development and I can't
quote the reference for it. But in my training I'm pretty sure it was like this.
Suzy Green: The majority of organizations are still at conventional stages of thinking, or at that achiever, you know,
which is probably still very self focused. And it's not until you move into that post conventional that they you start to
think more systemically. And and so I wonder, too, whether this is a reflection. I'm not sure I'm I'm all for evolution.
And hopefully, that's the direction we're moving in. But sometimes you can lose a little bit of faith when you say what's
happening in the world? How do you keep your purpose and faith going? Bob.
Robert E Quinn: Say the last sentence again.
Suzy Green: How do you keep sense of purpose and and hopefulness given? What's happening in in the world right
now?
Robert E Quinn: You know, at a personal level, it's a discipline it's every single
day trying to re. Return to. I mean, my short version is. My purpose is to inspire positive change.
Robert E Quinn: not to instruct, not to take my science and instruct people.
Robert E Quinn: It's much bigger responsibility. I have to inspire them
Robert E Quinn: that requires more than knowledge. It requires authenticity. It requires seeing their potential. It requires
a lot of things.
Robert E Quinn: It's to inspire positive change. The average professor doesn't take that accountability. Their
accountability is to inform people about their research. Right?
Robert E Quinn: So I fall away. I become a hypocrite constantly.
Robert E Quinn: I slip away from that, so I have to constantly clarify.
Robert E Quinn: The moment I do those words transform my being, I go from unfocused to focus. I go from. Fearful to
courageous. I take on virtues.
Robert E Quinn: I immediately then begin to inspire positive change, and I hold myself accountable to that in every
setting, whether it's in front of a classroom, or if I'm in somebody else's meeting.
Robert E Quinn: can I change this meeting to be a better meeting without
usurping the authority of the person in the room?
Robert E Quinn: That's a very unusual question to be asking right?
Robert E Quinn: So it's a very high level accountability. But I think that's and that's exactly the same thing that Roby is
saying about the company.
Robert E Quinn: the leaders' responsibility is to clarify the purpose of the whole constantly every meeting, conversation, every symbol on the wall.
Robert E Quinn: because the organization will break down into silos. Most organizations are siloed, which in silos are
simply clusters of self-interest.
Robert E Quinn: And so that's the challenge.
Suzy Green: And giving people the space I mean.
Suzy Green: people's lives and organisational lives are so jam packed that there's hardly any breathing space or self
reflective space. And I think that's crucially important for a leader that is working in a purpose. Driven organisation.
Suzy Green: Rosemary over to you. A lot of time left.
Rosemary Sainty: We've got. We've got 1 min left, Suzy. I was going to do a quick whip around. But just any other
sort of last comments, Carl or Corene.
Carl Rhodes: Only just to say, Thank you. Rosalie and Susie for organizing this event. It's been great to be a part of it,
and judging from the comments really engaged for the audience. So you know, thanks. For putting the time and effort
into making these things possible for everybody.
Corene Strauss: thanks. And my closing comment is to to all participants. Yeah, if you know what your purpose is in
your organization, or you know what your organization's purpose is.
Corene Strauss: Keep that front and center in your conversations every day, because that's what brings clarity,
empowerment and drives change and impact
Corene Strauss: love. What you do, too. It really helps.
Rosemary Sainty: Okay. Well, look, there's just been so many points raised this morning. I have to go back and look at
them all. I really love that concept of accountability of purpose as well. There's there's a lot to. It, isn't, isn't there? And
just that that kind of bolstering effect that it has, even in challenging times. Which
Rosemary Sainty: is the times that we're living in. So I'm just half a minute to thank you all for coming along, especially
Bob. I know it's now probably 8, 30, or 9
Rosemary Sainty: in the evening over there, and to Corinne and to Carl. Thank you so much for your time, Suzy, my
partner in crime, and a big shout out to Rebecca Whalen from the business school. Beck, who's living behind that uts
business school screen, doing this above and beyond her role, because she believes in the topics that we've been
discussing. So thank you, Beck.
Rosemary Sainty: and thank you everybody for for joining. And of course we'll have the recording posted. You'll get a
link in the email, and we'll put up some resources as well. So thank you. Everybody.
Suzy Green: And thank you, Rosemary.
Corene Strauss: Thank you, Rosemary.
Suzy Green: Funny.
Corene Strauss: Involved.
Suzy Green: Thanks.
Resources
References
From Professor Emeritus Robert E. Quinn:
- Quinn, Robert E., and Anjan V. Thakor. (2019). The economics of higher purpose: Eight counterintuitive steps for creating a purpose-driven organization. Berrett-Koehler Publishers.
- Quinn, R. E., & Thakor, A. V. (2018). Creating a purpose-driven organization. Harvard Business Review, 96(4), 78-85. hbr.org/2018/07/creating-a-purpose-driven-organization
From Professor Carl Rhodes
- Rhodes, C., & Pullen, A. (2023). The good business school. Organization, 30(6), 1273-1280. doi.org/10.1177/13505084231189268
- Rhodes, C. (2021). Woke capitalism: How corporate morality is sabotaging democracy. Policy Press.
On Organisational Purpose
- Besharov, Marya, and Björn Mitzinneck. "The multiple facets of corporate purpose: An analytical typology." Strategy Science 8, no. 2 (2023): 233-244. doi.org/10.1287/stsc.2023.0186
- Zenger, T. (2023). Special Issue on Corporate Purpose. Strategy Science, 8(2), 121-122. doi.org/10.1287/stsc.2023.0199
On Purpose in Life
- Kashdan, T., & Mcknight, P. (2009). Origins of Purpose in Life: Refining our Understanding of a Life Well Lived. Psychological Topics, Research Gate
- Kashdan, T. B., Goodman, F. R., McKnight, P. E., Brown, B., & Rum, R. (2023). Purpose in life: A resolution on the definition, conceptual model, and optimal measurement. American Psychologist. toddkashdan.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Kashdan-et-al-Purpose-AP.pdf
Acknowledgements
This event supports UN Sustainable Development Goals 3 and 17.
This event supports the following UN Sustainable Development Goals and is organised by The Positivity Institute and UTS Business School, as part of a commitment to the Principles of Responsible Management Education (PRME).
We also acknowledge the support of the Center for Positive Organizations, Ross School of Business, University of Michigan and to Professor Emeritus Kim Cameron, Emerita Professor Jane Dutton, Professor Emeritus Robert E. Quinn and Monica Worline (PhD).